 What do you like about SR4 and what changes?, SR1, 2 and 3 not included! |
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 Mar 30 2006, 11:16 PM
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#126
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Immortal Elf  Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670  |
thank-you.
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Mar 30 2006, 11:17 PM
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#127
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
You're welcome.
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Mar 31 2006, 01:39 AM
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#128
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
How "mature" are they, when you report using GM railroading tactics at every opportunity? I'm quite confused. In my experience, mature gamers don't ever need to be handed GM fiat.
:eek: Where did I say that Shadowrun 3rd was my favorite system? It's one of my favorites, yes, but not the only one. The mechanics are good, but there are better systems out there. I like the Savage Worlds mechanics more for certain types of games-- it lends itself to pulpy, over-the-top settings. Shadowrun is best saved for the main Shadowrun world; just take a look at Harlequins Back for an example of this.
Roleplay is entirely in the hands of the player. I can hand the most munched-out character possible to a good player, and everyone will have a good time. I can take the most "balanced" character and hand it to a bad player, and have the game collapse. In general, I've discovered that it's the characters with extremes that tend to bring out the best roleplay, in both good and bad players.
Guilty as charged. 8)
If Edge only helped with freak occurances of luck, that would be fine. It goes deeper than that, though-- it pushes things into the ludicrous category. I don't mind some of the other uses for edge at all, and I think some of them are actually pretty clever. It's the way it combines with Longshot tests, as part of the core mechanical principles, that I have the most issues with.
That's also part of what I don't like. The reverse also becomes true, where the players can more accurately anticipate what the opposition is like. It becomes harder to alter things on the fly; if the guards are getting mowed down too easily, it's a bit obvious if their body suddenly jumps from 3 to 5. A linear predictability curve makes it too hard to scare the players at the low end, and too easy to scare them at the high end. |
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Mar 31 2006, 05:05 AM
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#129
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
How can I be reporting GM Fiat? I haven't run the game yet. I'm reporting what I'd do if I had to, but luckily for me (as I've said before) I don't have to. Nice try though.
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Mar 31 2006, 08:43 AM
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#130
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
You said that if someone came up to you and proposed a powerful tactic, you'll say "great, now go away while the rest of us play Shadowrun." No discussion with the player, no reiteration of the goals of the game, just "go away". I hate to break it to you, but gaming isn't about only accepting the rules we like and discarding the rest, If you're constantly having to GM fiat to stop powerful tactics in the rules, most likely your skills as a GM are low or the system needs work. I'm assuming that your GM skills are at least decent, so that leaves the system as the likely culprit. Was I mistaken in that assumption? Would you put the blame more on your own skills, rather than the system? I really didn't think that was the case, so a clarification would be nice. |
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Mar 31 2006, 03:33 PM
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#131
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
"Alter things on the fly" = "GM cheating." Something I do not do. |
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Mar 31 2006, 06:32 PM
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#132
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
what are your thoughts on the necessity in SR4 of the GM adjudicating thresholds on the fly, then?
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Mar 31 2006, 06:52 PM
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#133
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Necessity?
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Mar 31 2006, 06:56 PM
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#134
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
absolutely. that was the answer i recieved when i asked about shooting a stationary target at long range--if the modifiers don't reflect how difficult the shot should be, the GM needs to raise the threshold. you don't need a threshold against a living target, because they get a chance to dodge. but with stationary targets, you have to raise the threshold. or, at least, that's what everybody told me. moreover, that's exactly what the text of the Threshold section in SR4 says.
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Mar 31 2006, 07:05 PM
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#135
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Oh, I see.
You are confusing fixed estimations with changes on the fly. As a sidenote, no, you don't usually change threshold in ranged combat, that's what dice pool modifiers are for. It was one of your biggest gripes. |
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Mar 31 2006, 07:11 PM
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#136
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
they're not fixed. that's the whole point. if the GM has a perfect memory, they might be, i suppose. but the reality is that players are going to face different thresholds at different times, while performing the same actions in the same circumstances.
maybe you can get Brahm to understand that. i couldn't. |
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Mar 31 2006, 07:19 PM
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#137
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
That's a pretty moot point, as that is always the case in any gaming system using a 'difficulty' table for estimations.
On the long run, those estimations tend to fixed values, too, as that's how the learning works - even if situations are not the same, just similar. Of course, in the beginning, there may be some variation, but this is mostly unintentional, opposed to changing things on the fly. |
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Mar 31 2006, 07:22 PM
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#138
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
except that in most games, you don't use the difficulty table for common tasks (shooting, for instance)--you use the specific difficulties and modifiers that the game provides for those tasks. in SR4, you are supposed to use GM discretion to determine much of the difficulty of common tasks. at least, that's what everyone tells me when i point out how easy it is for high-end characters to perform very difficult tasks. if you, personally, don't do that, then you are the first SR4 player i've talked to who doesn't, and i have some questions for you regarding sniping in the dark.
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Mar 31 2006, 07:40 PM
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#139
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Spontaneously altering an NPC's stats and determining an appropriate threshold difficulty are two entirely different things. The first demonstrates an ill-prepared GM trying to cover his butt. The second is a standard component of gamemaster responsibilities. Don't mistake the two. |
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Mar 31 2006, 07:44 PM
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#140
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
There are some suggestions for alternative ways to handle such common situations, but the rules are pretty well defined and don't call for much use of the difficulty table.
They lied to you.
You mean like a guy sitting down at the rifle range at night and flipping some of the chicken-sized metal targets with a handgun? The only real problem is whether you want a game that allows living legends to be larger than life. |
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Mar 31 2006, 08:13 PM
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#141
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
"Gaming isn't about only accepting the rules we like and discarding the rest." Incorret. Every game out there will have rules my group likes and rules we don't. It's called "house rules" and it's an integral part of every gaming experience outside of tournaments, and even those generally have a few tournament rulings or bannings thrown in.
"Would you put the blame more on your own skills, rather than the system? " When did I ever say the system was perfect? When did I ever say it had to be? For that matter when did I ever say there was nothing wrong with my gaming / GMing skills? When did I ever say there had to be. Tard. --- On the side topic: I freely admit to changing things on the fly if needbe. I won't do it to make sure pet NPCs survive," or "prevent the group fro accomplishing task X," but if I drop down some stats wth the assumption the the guy is a threat and it turns out he isn't, I'll change those stats. Lofwyr shouldn't become a pussy because I had a brain fart. |
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Mar 31 2006, 08:21 PM
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#142
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
well, then, i posit that difficult tasks are not difficult enough in SR4, at least for high-end characters. however, i'm not going to waste time defending this statement any more than i already have. the arguments set against it when i made the same statement previously boiled down to "the GM has to use thresholds to fix that". if that's not what's supposed to happen, then my statement is correct.
the real problem is whether or not the game mechanics reflect the setting that the game is attempting to portray. SR4 was intended to be more 'street level' and 'gritty'. maybe it's just me, but living legends who are larger than life (holy alliteration, batman!) simply don't evoke that. |
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Mar 31 2006, 08:26 PM
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#143
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Was, perhaps, indeed. I've yet to find a strong stament of that 'setting' in SR4. |
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Mar 31 2006, 08:34 PM
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#144
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Of course, if you're looking to play a street level and gritty SR4, you probably won't squeeze every last die out of the system to craft your living legend. Luckily for us SR4 let's you start as a gimp or a god. Go team!
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Mar 31 2006, 08:36 PM
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#145
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
That's one of the reasons I liked allocateable dice pools. You could simply have the guards change out their combat pool usage to either be more defensive and retreat, or become more agressive and lethal. I had a lot more flex in the lethality of a combat, just by having a backup option.
And how far does that go? If you're having to house rule everything down to the core die mechanics, at what point does it stop being the same game? I've seen conversions for Shadowrun to GURPS, and even a few stabs at D20. Would you consider those to be the same game? I wouldn't.
Yes you report that you find it necessary to hand down GM fiat on many things. No system is perfect, but many can avoid needing total GM smackdown at character creation. Generally, the problem tends to come from a system that encourages abuse (and doesn't reward saner characters) or an inexperienced GM who's uncertain about how to appropriately share storytelling goals with his players. I've been assuming the former, but if you think it's the latter, that doesn't mean there's anything *wrong* with your GMing skills. They could just use some improvement, which can be said for all of us. Basically, if you think the system is why you have to hand down GM fiats, then you're proving my point about how easily broked SR4 is. If you think it's all in your own skills, then I'm wrong. |
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Mar 31 2006, 08:37 PM
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#146
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Those are precisely the people who are supposed to be capable of performing them.
You're correct; living legends are not low-end characters. Not a particularly profound or useful point to make, but it's at least correct. You are, however, incorrect in assuming (or at least, apparently asserting) that all SR4 characters are inherently living legends.
You want street? Then play street. You want legend? Then play legend. Don't call the things on the buffet table inedible just because you can't figure out how to work your plate. |
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Mar 31 2006, 08:41 PM
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#147
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
not with the frequency with which they are able to perform them. a guy with uber skill and stat, with no bonuses (cyber, magic, edge) can perform feats regularly that the listed real-life counterparts would find incredibly difficult. it's not about what i want. it's about what the setting is intended to evoke. all the material says that the game is supposed to be more gritty and street. the rules themselves, however, do not support this. if i came to the table for a Mexican buffet, i don't want to see half the table filled with escargot. |
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Mar 31 2006, 08:46 PM
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#148
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Uh, where? |
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Mar 31 2006, 08:49 PM
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#149
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
No, actually, it is about what you want. FanPro specifically made the game scalable to multiple playstyles and power levels so as to satisfy as many people as they could. It's utterly ridiculous to condemn them for offering that flexibility. "Would you like a small, medium, or large soda, sir?" "Large?! What the hell are you trying to pull? I came here because I liked small drinks, and here you are offering me a large!!! I'm never coming here again!" "Yes sir, thank you. There's the door." Hooray for more food analogies. |
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Mar 31 2006, 08:51 PM
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#150
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Yeah, what he said. |
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