 What do you like about SR4 and what changes?, SR1, 2 and 3 not included! |
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 Mar 25 2006, 05:34 PM
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#26
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Runner  Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185  |
And it's possible in just about any field presuming the newb has the raw talent. In SR4 people like Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods and Fastjack are statistically in the top 11% of human performance in their chosen field - statistically speaking there are rookies in American basketball and golf that get within the same 14% performance/results range of a Michael Jordan and a Tiger Woods (actually that's how he came on the scene). The same applies to many areas of science and business. Then there's a gap between those and the leading lights and pros in each field which hit are 14-28% less capable, and so on. That is as close as the SR4 system approximates in terms of comparative performance.
It also helps to think of Edge not just as blind luck, but the experience and carefully-honed knowledge of when to take advantage of the small opportunities life gives when it makes the most difference. |
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Mar 26 2006, 01:09 AM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 464 Joined: 3-March 06 From: CalFree Member No.: 8,329 |
Incompetent is just one of those things you have to GM. Someone wants 5 build points, they damn well are going to pay for 5 build points. Use common sense -- allow the fault for one or MAYBE two skills, and not skills like "Registering Sprites" or "Aerospace Mechanic" if they're mundane gangers or something. Plus that extra point of Notoriety means they have to earn an extra 10 Karma before getting a positive Street Cred or whatever. That's going to affect what sort of jobs they get offered. Point that out during character creation, otherwise it's not effective really. (Actually, "Karma" is a term that sort of puzzles me. In most games, they use a term like "experience points", because it represents your character learning from experience, or a term like "character points", because it enhances your character's capabilities. Karma (outside the game) refers to something that can be favorable or unfavorable, and actions based on desire, or actions that are hostile, such as overpowering security guards in order to grab the dingus in the lab, produce *unfavorable* Karma, but get you "Karma" points to spend on improving your attributes and skills and such. I'm just saying it's a weird name for experience points is all. You could just as accurately call it "Q score", "CMMI" or "NINJA POWAR POINT'S"(sic).) |
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Mar 26 2006, 01:36 AM
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#28
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
karma is a leftover from when it did both the xp part and the edge part...
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Mar 26 2006, 01:59 AM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 464 Joined: 3-March 06 From: CalFree Member No.: 8,329 |
Well yeah, but the term didn't make sense there either.
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Mar 26 2006, 04:16 AM
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#30
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
it sorta did. SR has always sorta-kinda assumed that the PCs, while maintaining their status as murderous lunatics who will kill people for money, are still sorta good guys in some vague way (for instance, anyone who wants to play an extremist probably needs to have their head examined). karma is, well, karma awarded for that vague, non-closely-examined goodness.
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Mar 26 2006, 08:55 AM
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#31
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
That's been factored into the example. If someone has the "raw talent", that would be reflected in his attributes-- a high Logic, in this case. We're not comparing two Logic 6 characters, though. We're comparing a Logic 3, Software 3 character versus the "best of the best"-- a Logic 6, Software 6+ character. There's no comparison in "raw talent" or in skill and experience. However, the Joe Average will meet or beat the best in the world, one out of every five times.
It's *still* overpowered. Compare Incompetence to the "Group Incompetence" flaws: Infirm, Uncouth, and Uneducated. If you buy Incompetent in all six social skills, you get +30 points, and aren't any worse off than if you had bought Uncouth-- and you've gained an additional 10 points. The other two are even worse: Infirm blocks you out of 15 active skills (including Perception!) and Uneducated blocks you out of 19 active skills, plus a bundle of knowledges. Yes, you can still buy a particular skill, if you really want it... but at double the cost, you're better off buying 4 Incompetences under that heading, and leaving the skill you want untouched. You can pick any 7 skills under those headings, no matter how serious they might be; in every case, you get more points and are less inconvenienced than if you had bought Infirm or Uneducated. Restrict the skill choices all you like-- it *still* doesn't help.
"Karma", in it's orginal meaning, meant something like "Work". Or, another way of putting it is: "Effect on the universe". None of these translations are particularily good, but thinking of karma as the result of work/making your mark on the universe might help in understanding why it's appropriate to use as a synonym for "Experience". |
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Mar 26 2006, 09:20 AM
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#32
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
By "Joe Average" however you mean "Joe, the average quality professional" and by "meet or beat" you mean "get as many hits on one test". So to put that in perspective: A sprinter makes two sprinting tests every initiative pass. So if Joe the professional athlete is racing against the best in the world, he's going to not lose any ground about one second in five - the other four seconds he falls farther and farther behind. A computer programmer makes a testevery hour when modifying code to remove the serial numbers. So out of every 5 hours, there will be almost one hour where the professional grade computer guy was as productive as the haxxor genius. --- Now, I actually agree with you that the caps on skills are a little low. But your example doesn't show that at all. If you want to make a coherent argument for raising the skill caps, you should start with one of the following statements: [*] Spirits aren't capped in their skills. A Force 9 hearth spirit has a Spellcasting of 9. And an Assensing of 9. At the high end, there's really no point in having a Seer's guild because guidance spirits are just better at the whole deal. That's unfortunate. [*] Starting characters can have the skill maximum. Not in every skill mind, just in one. And in some cases that makes you the best in your field (example: Counterspelling, Assensing, Gunnery), and in some cases that provides you with substantial room to grow (example: Hacking, Conjuring, Ninjing). Every character should have room to grow in their schtick. Those would be good arguments. But so far you've been making bad arguments.
That's false. Incompetence: Ettiquette means you can't buy an Ettiquette skill. Uncouth means that purchasing an Ettitquette skill costs double and you auto-fail if you don't buy a skill. Uncouth is a crappy deal and bad for the game, but it isn't nearly as hindering as taking Incompetence to all the Social Skills. -Frank |
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Mar 26 2006, 10:36 AM
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#33
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
yea, its the age old criminal with a honor code thing. as in, will injure a maybe kill guards, but will avoid hurting civilians and so on... thats basicly what a street samurai is, a criminal with a kind of honor code. when the honor is upheld, his karma is good... this was allso somewhat seens in the cash for karma rule in SRcomp. by giving out cash to charity and in other ways using money on others then yourself, you would build up karma. problem is that all to many just play it as criminals for hire, people that will do anything for money, no questions asked. i guess thats why so many characters end up a messy death from explosives overkill... even the gangers can fit into this. you have your honor towards the gang and so on. basicly there is a line that the character will not cross, atleast not for money. this however is badly reflected in the karma handout chapter. rather then having a karma point for "good roleplay" (a very, very vague term) there should be a suggestion to hand out a extra point of karma if the character stayed true to his honor code when faced with the posibility of breaking it. funny, the example i feel like using is batman. here is a person that works outside the law, and is in theory atleast a criminal (vigilante or something like that). yet he have one or two things he will not do: use firearms or kill (atleast not mormaly. there have been storys where he have stepped outside of the last point i think. but those are seen as dark spots in his history). |
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Mar 26 2006, 01:54 PM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 170 Joined: 23-March 06 From: Drowning in the pollution of Mass Bay Member No.: 8,401 |
My main dislike is their not having included a city section, like the Seattle section SR3 had in the back.
Other than that I'm not sure I understand it well enough, and haven't played any other version to see the differences. |
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Mar 26 2006, 03:29 PM
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#35
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Target Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 21-October 04 Member No.: 6,778 |
[snip] Nice post! :) SR4 continues to encourage at least some level of morality/honor in Shadowrunners by encouraging GMs to award their players by replenishing their Edge for acts of heroic self-sacrifice (page 68). :cyber: |
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Mar 26 2006, 04:08 PM
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#36
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
i have my moments...
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Mar 26 2006, 05:25 PM
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#37
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
They can't do this too often ;) |
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Mar 26 2006, 06:26 PM
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#38
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
most likely it will only recover the edge spendt to survive the self-sacrefice...
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Mar 26 2006, 06:31 PM
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#39
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Surviving a self-sacrifice sounds strange to me :D
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Mar 26 2006, 06:49 PM
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#40
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
i know...
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Mar 27 2006, 10:18 AM
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#41
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Not quite. In both cases, you're treated as unaware, and you auto-fail because unaware = no default. Also, if you want a character who's effectively Uncouth, but has the Ettiquette skill, you're still better off buying all the others as Incompetences. Uncouth gives you 20 points, but costs you 8 points a level for the skill: net result, buying the skill at rating 3 leaves you at -8 points. If you buy Incompetences in everything *but* Ettiquette, you've gained 25 points, and have only spent 12: net result, +13 points. Exact same spread of skills and penalties, except one gains you a lot more. And even if you bought all six, you'd *still* be better off. If you're Uncouth, and you want to buy Ettiquette up to 3 with karma, it'd cost you 28 points ((4+4+6)x2). If you are Incompetent, you have to buy the flaw off first, but then you pay normal price: 10+4+4+6= 24 karma. You save 4 karma in the process. |
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Mar 27 2006, 05:54 PM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 371 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Regina Member No.: 8,145 |
My point is: if a GM has to House Rule something with blah blah limitations and such, that aren't included in the RAW, then that rule is an "exploit" or a "munch".
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Mar 28 2006, 01:14 AM
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#43
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
You are absolutely right: the difference between Incompetence and Uncouth is big. Taking Incompetence x 6 in order to make a charactert hat would be described in game as "uncouth" is indeed very munchkiny. But so what?
1) It's an obvious problem, easily fixed by the least skilled of GMs. 2) It is completely impossible to close all loopholes. The only game that would ever have a chance of being balanced for all rules, all characters, all the time is the game called "GM makes the characters, determines their advancement, and constantly fudges to make up for his earlier mistakes." Basically, any game, by virtue of having been written by humans, will be flawed somehow. I haven't finished reading my SR4 (despite having gotten it last August). But I'll be starting a game next weekend and so far I'm liking everything I've seen (ok, almost everything). To stay on topic: stuff I like - The idea of hacking someone's commlink. I haven't read the rules for ti yet, so I may not like the implementation. - The switch to stat + skill vs. a set TN. Much simpler during the firefights, and before the game when trying to weight the statistics of base thresholds and NPC skills. - The character creation system: yeah, it's still possible to overload on something and end up with 50-bajillion dice in one thing, but the general idea that a shadowrunner should be a diverse creation is actually implied by the rules now, and partially enforced. - Manaball now deals physical damage. In prior systems Manaball and Sleep were almost functionally identical but sleep's drain was a point or two lower. Stuff I don't like: - Ammunition is all pretty much the same. Heck, EX Explosive is now easier to get and better than APDS, apart from the possibility of explosion, for which the rules are still fairly vague. In some campaigns it'll explode if you sneeze, and in others it'll never happen unless you light it yourself. - Not sure. But as I keep digging I'm sure I'll find more (but hopefully not too much more). |
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Mar 28 2006, 08:27 AM
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#44
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
1) It's not as easy as you might think. I could ban Incompetences, but that seems overly draconian, and is a necessary part of the skill levels. I could raise the rebate for Uncouth, but then I might overdo it, giving away too many points for a flaw-- and even if I fix the Uncouth rebate at 30, that doesn't even address the massive differences between tons of Incompetences and Infirm or Uneducated. I could raise the cost for buying off Incompetence, but then I'd have to raise the cost for buying off Uncouth/Infirm/Uneducated as well, putting us right back where we started. 2) Incompetence is more than a "loophole"-- it's a gaping maw, just begging to be abused. For example, you can take Incompetences in Magical or Resonance skills, even if you're not a mage or technomancer. You can take incompentences in skills that allow no default. You can take incompetences in skills that are highly unlikely to ever come up in a game. And you can take incompetences in skills that fit both categories, like Pilot Aerospace. It also renders three different other flaws obsolete. And what's more, it's also a core concept in the game, since it's the only way for a PC to have Rating 0 in a skill. A developer can be forgiven for missing a tiny little wording here that can be twisted into something totally wild-- but something this big? You don't have to ask for perfection; you just have to ask for something that's not begging you to rape the system. |
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Mar 28 2006, 02:59 PM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 371 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Regina Member No.: 8,145 |
I'm thinking the best way to fix Incompetence is:
1) You can only take it once (unless you have a very good reason) 2) You cannot take it for a skill you could never have 3) It cannot be taken for skills that must be trained (no default) 4) It can only be taken for a limited set of skills. As a GM pick only the skill that could/would conceivably come up in your adventures. |
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Mar 28 2006, 04:17 PM
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#46
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
It's true that six Incompetences would buy you a whole lot more BP than Uncouth once. However, there is one thing besides the fact that Incompetence is more limiting than Uncouth (already mentioned), which is Notoriety.
A character with six Incompetence qualities starts out with (at least) Notoriety 6. That's a big hit when dealing with, well, anybody. I don't have the rules in front of me just now, but I seem to recall that a high Notoriety gives you a reputation as a punk, and not in a good way. Again, I'm not looking at the rules, but I think if it was my game, and a Johnson knew that this guy was on the team he was negotiating with, I'd use his Notoriety as a teamwork action with the Johnson (if I was feeling nice) or a negative pool modifier against the team (if I was feeling evil) in any Negotiation test. Anybody that has the rules there or memorized have any comments? Oh, and don't tell my GM about my character's Notoriety until after I get it bought down. =) |
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Mar 28 2006, 07:35 PM
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#47
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
You'd need to do somewhat more than that, because it'd still be a better deal for the one skill than buying Uncouth/Infirm/Uneducated. You'd have to reduce the rebate, increase the buyoff cost for this specific flaw only, increase the returns for buying the three group Incompetences, and scale them according to the actual penalties they impose... basically, we're talking several pages of house rules to fix *one* problem.
Actually, it's meaningless at the start of the game. First, all Notoriety does is reduce your Street Cred dice, which is typically zero to start with anyway. Since Street Cred can't be reduced below zero in any case, it doesn't have any effect whatsoever. Second, even when you have Street Cred, there's no reason to buy off Notoriety, since it can be a bonus to you in the right circumstances; additionally, it's bought off at a 2:1 ratio, while it only hurts you at a 1:1 ratio. Third, it's way too easy to avoid any negative consequences; you can simply disguise yourself, and start fresh. Just buy yourself the Disguise skill, or pay for cosmetic surgery. |
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Mar 28 2006, 08:02 PM
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#48
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
What about the blatantly obvious solution (at least to me): What's that Joe? You want to buy Incompetence 6 times to get the effects of another negative quality for more points? Pull the other one.
Not in my game you can't. And not in any game run by a GM who cares about balance. You see, it's all tied into that final step of character creation: GM approval. They could have written in the description of the flaws "this flaw cannot be taken for skills that wouldn't matter," but then we'd be here arguing about "what matters." I mean, it's within the realms of possibility that my troll street sam may one day want to pick up knowledge (sorcery) to help him identify the things those mean mages keep doing to him. But is it close enough to possible that I'll let Incompetence be taken as a flaw for it? Not unless I know the player actually would do that, due to past characters they've played.
Only if abused, which is, I reiterate, easy to stop.
And? There are a lot of core concepts in a lot of games that don't work 100% perfectly. If you can do better then by all means do so. I'll happily buy 2 copies for all of my players of your "Darkwalkers" game about people who "stroll" through the "dimly lit areas" using "occultism" and "technoorgans" to perform "jobs" against the evil "big companies" after the "magicification" of the world: If you can make it work flawlessly. :D Real world example: This weekend I'll be running an SR4 game for the first time (using On The Run). One of my players is making a human wolf shaman with both uncouth and uneducated: he was raised in the wild and will probably be a fun character to GM. He saw Incompetence and remarked on it, but didn't even think to try and buy it for every skill in the book (or even any, because Uncouth and Uneducated did what he wanted). It doesn't take rocket science. It just takes mature players and/or a mature GM to make sure things are used as intended rather than abused as unintended.
I don't have to ask that. I have the benefit of a good gaming group (actually an incredibly long string of good gaming groups, most of them built from scratch by me and a friend or two). No matter how much attention is put into a game, there will be things in it that beg you to "rape the system." D&D 3.0 is possibly the most heavily playtested set of base game rules put out in who knows how long, but some things (even the ones that weren't sacred cows) crept in, because it's impossible to close every hole. For instance, a Wizard 11 / Arcane Archer 1 could imbue an arrow with antimagic field, and if he hit an enemy spellcaster they were screwed. Perhaps when they made Incompetence a "core concept" they figured it would be used as a means to give characters some reasonable flaws in an otherwise highly skilled world. It may have crossed someone's mind to "rape the system" with it, but presumably shortly after that happenend they said "well, some stupid GMs will allow it, while others will bitch and moan about it, but we can't close them all, and this one is obviously ludicrous." Then again, maybe they let it slip through just to annoy you. ;) |
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Mar 29 2006, 12:08 AM
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#49
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
And if he's wanting to do something legit? What if he's a good roleplayer with a good character background?
"Not working 100% perfectly" != "Huge gaping flaw begging to be misused".
Except he can't do that. Uncouth + Uneducated = 40 points, which is above the 35 point limit. If you want a character who has both, the *only* way of doing it legally is to buy at least some Incompetences.
Oh, come on now. If that were the case, they wouldn't have put any skill or attribute caps into the game at all. I mean, players could rape the system by pumping those up, and they went way overboard in trying to close that problem (and, I might add, failed). They closed a lot of "obviously ludicrous" loopholes as part of good game design; missing a few minor ones is forgiveable, but missing ones baked into the core concept of the skill system? And in turn, baked into the core mechanic itself? There's several serious problems that go all the way back to the very basic assumptions the game is making, and this is just one of them. |
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Mar 29 2006, 12:22 AM
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#50
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Or as someone else might add "achieved the results framework they desired" - the fact that you don't like it and don't feel it reflects your vision of Shadowrun is another issue entirely.
This Incompetence issue did come up in playtesting and it was decided that this was the sort of thing that might be acceptable to one GM and one game, and unacceptable in another, and hence it shouldn't be definitively ruled in or out but left to individual gamemasters in the "GM approval" stage of character generation. It's as simple as that. SR4 rules were intentionally developed with enough "flex" to be easily adjusted to suit any play style and type of game by allowing the GM to tweak minor aspects as he sees fit (in a way which was not possible with SR3). Want a longer development range in your game - remove the skill and att caps. Want to play a higher powered campaign - allow more BPs at chargen. Want to reduce the importance of Atts in the system - limit total hits to Skill rating. It specifically plays off that one section at the beginning of the book which says that if you don't like something change it. Some people will like this, some won't. Regardless this edition of Shadowrun is here to stay. |
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