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> Weapons Foci, Do they need to be weapons?
Dashifen
post Mar 24 2006, 11:55 PM
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QUOTE ("SR4 p. 191 under Weapon Foci")
Weapon foci add magical power to an Awakened character’s melee attacks.

In physical combat, weapon foci add their Force in dice to the character’s dice pool for melee attacks. The character still relies on her Physical attributes and skills in combat; the weapon focus merely makes him more effective. This also applies to astrally perceiving characters fighting an opponent on the astral plane. Weapon foci are effective against astral forms and continue to add their Force in dice against such enemies.

An astrally projecting character takes her weapon focus with him to the astral plane. Making an attack with a weapon focus in astral space relies on the character’s Willpower + Astral Combat dice pool (see Astral Combat, p. 184), but this dice pool is increased by the Force of the weapon focus. The damage of the weapon is the same on the astral plane as it is in the physical world.


No where does it say that the Weapon Focus needs to be a weapon in those paragraphs that I can tell, only that when in combat, the force of the Focus is added to the dice pool for an attack. In the explanatory text from p. 190-191 under Foci in the book it only says that the "physical representation of a focus can vary."

The cost in Karma to bond a Weapon Focus is (3 + Weapon Reach) x Force, but if you're, say, a Bear shaman your weapon focus could be the bear claws (not the pastries :D) you wear about your neck. These would have reach of 0, as they're not weapons (okay, so they are if they're still attached to the bear) thus the karma to bond this focus would be simply 3 x Force.

Thoughts? Did I miss something pertinent in the rules?
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Dashifen
post Mar 24 2006, 11:56 PM
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Damn ... meant to write this in the above post. Anyway, I do see that it says "The damage of the weapon is the same on the astral plan as it is in the physical world," but that still doesn't mean the focus has to be the weapon as your fists could be the "weapon" you use on the Astral plane since it's all based on your Astral Combat roll anyway.
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Thanee
post Mar 25 2006, 12:13 AM
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If you wanted to write something in the above post, why don't you just edit it? ;)

Anyways... I think a weapon focus needs to be a weapon.

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Azralon
post Mar 25 2006, 12:19 AM
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Yeah, it's a weapon focus, implying pretty strongly that it's a weapon.

In your Bear example, I'd give him an enchanted fur mitten or two to wear on his hands and call that his weapon focus. The claws could maybe do +0P damage (in the physical and astral worlds).
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Dashifen
post Mar 25 2006, 12:20 AM
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QUOTE (Thanee)
If you wanted to write something in the above post, why don't you just edit it? ;)

Because I was worried that someone might already be replying to the original topic. If I edit it, it's unclear that this happened unless I remember to click the the checkbox which include the "edited on ...." line in the post.
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mfb
post Mar 25 2006, 12:20 AM
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well, i dunno. a spell focus isn't a spell, and a spirit focus isn't a spirit. if the text doesn't specifically state that you have to hit someone with your weapon focus in order to gain the benefits, i'd allow a weapon focus for unarmed combat that you don't wear on any striking surface. though, things get sick and weird as soon as reach comes into the equation.
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Dashifen
post Mar 25 2006, 12:22 AM
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That was actually my counter argument as well. I guess to me it makes very little sense to make your weapon focus a weapon. Make it a ring or a belt buckle or something my more innocuous than the katana that you mystically conceal in a trenchcoat (go Highlander!).
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mfb
post Mar 25 2006, 12:25 AM
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come to think, the quoted text doesn't limit using your weapon focus to a single form of attack. as stated, you could wear your force 5 claymore on your back and get the benefits when you punch people. here, reach makes things even sicker and weirder.
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Dashifen
post Mar 25 2006, 12:27 AM
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True, but you wouldn't get the reach benefits of the claymore if it's strapped to your back, just the extra 5 dice from the focus.
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Kanada Ten
post Mar 25 2006, 12:34 AM
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Were I to allow a weapon focus to be separate from the weapon(s) used in combat, then I would say that Reach in the bonding formula represents the highest reach weapon it functions with. However, I believe the rule intent is that the weapon be the focus.
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mfb
post Mar 25 2006, 12:36 AM
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me too. but i really like the idea of a guy who wears bear claws around his neck, and hits like a sack full of locomotives as a result.
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Kanada Ten
post Mar 25 2006, 12:38 AM
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QUOTE (mfb)
me too. but i really like the idea of a guy who wears bear claws around his neck, and hits like a sack full of locomotives as a result.

Anchored Enhanced Strength? Do they have those in SR4?
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Thanee
post Mar 25 2006, 12:40 AM
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Not yet. ;)

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Thanee
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Glyph
post Mar 25 2006, 03:53 AM
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Mystic adept with killing hands and critical strike? Or just have the weapon focus be a pair of magical brass knuckles.

Heh. Reminds me of the old debates we had, about adepts of the magician's way using shock glove weapon foci along with improved ability in unarmed combat, the ambidexterity rules, and a touch spell. :D
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Dranem
post Mar 25 2006, 07:16 AM
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As in SR3, when they had to elaborate that a focus required a certain amount of Oricalcum depending on the force, I see they'll have to do it here for SR4. The rare magical ore is the primary reason for the horrendous cost of foci.

If you've played SR long enough, you should know by now that a weapon focus is tied to the weapon itself, and hence can only benefit attacks with the item. ;)

I'm anxious for the magic book to come out, I have an SR3 Talismonger trapped in conversion, as there are no rules for them yet in the new edition... despite the fact they have one in the contacts section. grrrr.
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Jhaiisiin
post Mar 25 2006, 08:03 AM
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My group has always played as the weapon focus being a weapon itself. It states you can take your weapon into the astral as a result. Can't take a sword into the astral unless it has an astral form, hence the weapon focus needing to be a weapon to work.
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Cain
post Mar 25 2006, 09:26 AM
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Yeah, but then things get weird when you start thinking about unarmed combat. Gloves aren't really weapons, they're just add-ons-- your hands and your feet (or elbows, knees, forehead, etc.) are your weapons. And since you can get the benefits of an unarmed combat focus even if you're not using it to hit people with-- you're wearing gloves as your focus, but it works for your kicks as well-- the thought of a weapon focus that just helps out overall doesn't seem too terrible.
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Jhaiisiin
post Mar 25 2006, 08:12 PM
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I'd figure because you're using a hand that's gloved to hit someone, it counts. You're using the focus itself in the attack, so whynot? Or just rule it has to be sap gloves. Maybe get real stringent if you try and say only your when smackin' people around with your hands it counts as the focus.

Mayhap your bearclaw necklace idea would work, so long as the necklace was wrapped around one of his hands first, so the focus knows what it's being used for, so to speak...
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GrinderTheTroll
post Mar 25 2006, 10:23 PM
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QUOTE (Dashifen)
QUOTE ("SR4 p. 191 under Weapon Foci")
Weapon foci add magical power to an Awakened character’s melee attacks.

In physical combat, weapon foci add their Force in dice to the character’s dice pool for melee attacks. The character still relies on her Physical attributes and skills in combat; the weapon focus merely makes him more effective. This also applies to astrally perceiving characters fighting an opponent on the astral plane. Weapon foci are effective against astral forms and continue to add their Force in dice against such enemies.

An astrally projecting character takes her weapon focus with him to the astral plane. Making an attack with a weapon focus in astral space relies on the character’s Willpower + Astral Combat dice pool (see Astral Combat, p. 184), but this dice pool is increased by the Force of the weapon focus. The damage of the weapon is the same on the astral plane as it is in the physical world.


No where does it say that the Weapon Focus needs to be a weapon in those paragraphs that I can tell, only that when in combat, the force of the Focus is added to the dice pool for an attack. In the explanatory text from p. 190-191 under Foci in the book it only says that the "physical representation of a focus can vary."

The cost in Karma to bond a Weapon Focus is (3 + Weapon Reach) x Force, but if you're, say, a Bear shaman your weapon focus could be the bear claws (not the pastries :D) you wear about your neck. These would have reach of 0, as they're not weapons (okay, so they are if they're still attached to the bear) thus the karma to bond this focus would be simply 3 x Force.

Thoughts? Did I miss something pertinent in the rules?

I think the exploit could be raised of just getting a reach +0 focus to avoid high bonding costs and still reap all the benefits.

Although it isn't directly spelled-out "a Weapon Focus" must be a weapon, I think there is enough there and the exploitability of it all to let it be implied the Weapon Focus is a "magical weapon" that impart bonuses to it's user.
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Thanee
post Mar 25 2006, 10:40 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 25 2006, 10:26 AM)
And since you can get the benefits of an unarmed combat focus even if you're not using it to hit people with...


That simply shouldn't be. A weapon focus should only add a bonus, when it is used. If you have an 'unarmed combat weapon focus', like gloves, then you should have to punch in order to get the bonus.

Of course, the GM is perfectly free to simply disallow such weapon foci and only allow *real* weapons to be turned into weapon foci, not stuff like gloves for unarmed combat.

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Thanee
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Cain
post Mar 26 2006, 08:21 AM
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QUOTE
Of course, the GM is perfectly free to simply disallow such weapon foci and only allow *real* weapons to be turned into weapon foci, not stuff like gloves for unarmed combat.

What about converting shock gloves into weapon foci? Or the old SR3 weighted gloves? Or a set of brass knuckles? If you've ever been hit by a set of brass knuckles, the difference between them and a "real" weapon gets pretty academic.

However, according to the RAW, you can get a weapon focus for unarmed combat. And once you do that, it applies equally to all forms of unarmed combat-- grappling, kicking, punching, etc.. So, you don't technically need to be hitting people with it to gain the benefits of the focus.

[Edit: Just noticed something. One of the old loopholes is still there. You can get a weapon focus as any weapon you like, and it has its own availiability code. So, you could buy a monowhip focus, and bypass starting availiability. Just something people might like to start houseruling on. :D)
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Dissonance
post Mar 26 2006, 08:49 AM
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Academic, in the sense that you could write a doctorate thesis on the pain? Snerk.

Anyhoo, I don't see there being anything immediately wrong with getting an unarmed-combat style weapon focus in the form of an unarmed-combat style enhancer. Like Cain just mentioned.

As for the loophole you mentioned, Cain? Two things.

1) I always interpreted the cost of the foci to just be for the actual enchanting of the item. The item itself still has to be purchased, but in the case of most foci, the cost might as well be negligable.

2) Monowhips are chargen-legal. In fact, there aren't _any_ melee weapon in SR4 that aren't. In this system, they're exactly as illegal as cybernetic spurs. 12F.
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Thanee
post Mar 26 2006, 09:24 AM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 26 2006, 09:21 AM)
[Edit: Just noticed something.  One of the old loopholes is still there.  You can get a weapon focus as any weapon you like, and it has its own availiability code.  So, you could buy a monowhip focus, and bypass starting availiability.  Just something people might like to start houseruling on.  :D)

Actually you have to buy the weapon as well (not that you can't buy monowhips, anyways).

QUOTE
What about converting shock gloves into weapon foci? Or the old SR3 weighted gloves? Or a set of brass knuckles?


Those are all perfectly fine weapons, and when they are being used, you will also get the bonus from the weapon focus.

QUOTE
However, according to the RAW, you can get a weapon focus for unarmed combat. And once you do that, it applies equally to all forms of unarmed combat-- grappling, kicking, punching, etc.. So, you don't technically need to be hitting people with it to gain the benefits of the focus.


I do not think it is anywhere clear about what you claim there. ;)

It does make no distinction between armed and unarmed combat, so the unarmed combat weapon focus is certainly possible, but nowhere does it say, that it does provide a bonus, if you do not actually use it.

Bye
Thanee
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The Jopp
post Mar 27 2006, 11:25 AM
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Hmm, weapon foci, shock frills...
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Kyoto Kid
post Mar 28 2006, 03:35 AM
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Weapon focus Louisville Slugger

talk about a corked bat....

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