 Dude, armor sucks. |
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 Mar 27 2006, 09:34 PM
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#65
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372  |
With all the arguments about whether or not cracked ribs and significant, deep bruising, inability to breathe properly, etc. - all potential trauma of rounds stopped by a vest - can or can't someone out of a fight, for up to 15 minutes or more, I have only one question:
Don't any of you guys have fucking nerve endings? That shit hurts, and no, you're not badass enough to shrug it off and keep going without drugs, stim patches, painkillers, magic, cyberware, and the like. A few years ago, I cracked a significant number of ribs (along with severe contusions in that area) in a nasty car accident, and it took me upwards of 15 minutes just to get out of bed the next morning, and could barely breathe, much less start running around shooting at people. For a few days or a week or so, I had to eat painkillers like Pez just to get off the couch and make a sandwich or take a piss. That's Stun damage, by all accounts in the previous posts in this thread. It's not a tap on the melon, kids. It's a fucking wrecking ball. |
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Mar 27 2006, 09:44 PM
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#66
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
I appreciate your point, Geekkake. But I think what people are disputing (at least some people, if I'm understanding this) is whether that pain could render you unconscious and incapable of any action, or whether it just made any action painful and difficult.
Maybe. Maybe someone here was disputing that, I don't really know anymore. |
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Mar 27 2006, 09:45 PM
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#67
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,313 |
*sounds of potato chip crunching*
No way, man! I could totally just ignore it. I don't care how beat up I am, unless you kill me I'll just keep coming. One time, I stubbed my toe and I totally just kept walking! Maybe I cried a little, but if I can keep going with a stubbed toe, I can take any number of gut shots without going down. *crunch crunch* |
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Mar 27 2006, 09:45 PM
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#68
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yeah... the thing is, sometimes, you don't notice how bad it hurts until the next morning. just as often--maybe more often--it hurts that bad right when it happens. and, hey, who knows how much that bruising would have slowed you down if someone were shooting at you when you got out of bed, y'know?
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Mar 27 2006, 09:46 PM
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#69
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Humans behave very differently when they are under no direct threat. I'm sure if the bruise-butt-guy I linked earlier had crashed right in front of a hospital he wouldn't have moved a muscle for quite some. But when there are people around trying really hard to kill you, and are sure to succeed unless you do something, pain often becomes less important. Hence how a police officer might collapse if you sucker punch him in the street and take things slowly for quite a while afterwards, but might not even notice a few hits to his vest once the shit has already hit the fan.
There are just as many accounts of people collapsing to a screaming heap after a relatively minor wound as there are of people who have sustained multiple serious, even immediately life-threatening injuries and still manage to act in a rational manner. Usually it's more fun to play the guys who choose fight, or even flight, rather than Cry Like a Baby. I'd probably choose the latter IRL, I don't want to be forced to do that in an RPG. I am not a proponent of CreepWoodRun. :) [Edit]Holy shit, spend 75 seconds to search for the right post and 3 people post before me![/Edit] |
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Mar 27 2006, 09:58 PM
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#70
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
There is a little truth in that. Folklore tells, you can get unconscious by breaking a toe (your own, of course :D). |
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Mar 27 2006, 10:20 PM
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#71
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
My goodness that is a clusterfrag of a thread, I'm glad I didn't see that one last year. Oh man, I read the first page and then read the last two to see how far it devolved... edit: And yeah, I don't want to play the screaming heap character either, that's just not fun. Yes, there's the realism stuff that people want in games. But is it really that fun? For me it's not, different strokes for different folks as they say. |
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Mar 27 2006, 10:42 PM
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#72
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Forcing all characters to be screaming heaps isn't realistic at all, since most "hardened professional" types don't react like that. It would make sense to encourage that sort of roleplaying when there is reason to doubt the characters' ability to function under severe stress, but forcing all characters to do that would be like enforcing a Willpower cap of 2. In this instance, as so often is the case, the realistic approach is also the fun one for most people.
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Mar 27 2006, 11:19 PM
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#73
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
Another realistic approach... diving for cover and then afterwards stick the gun around the corner and do the spray and pray routine. :-D Though it's kinda helpful if you have a guncam on your piece then you can actually *gasp* aim?
edit: Ok, not as realistic for some hardened professionals and the like. But street level? Oh hell yeah. |
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Mar 27 2006, 11:27 PM
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#74
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
I concur. A simple example of what you're saying can be found on, say, the History Channel. World War II footage. Total chaos, blood everywhere, you're surrounded by guys you said hi to on a boat an hour ago that are now screaming for their mommies and trying to hold their intestines in. What did most of those advancing soldiers do? Kept going, kept shooting, kept dying. Sure, some of them were no doubt huddled under cover, crying, but certainly not all of them, and I daresay, not even most of them. That's an extreme example, because there were a lot more men, which bolsters a lot more courage than your average shadowrunner team of 4-6, but I submit that the bonds of that group, if they're been working together any significant length of time, my be just as strong. I regard the Stun track thusly: Since it's based on your Willpower, I regard 8 Stun as the end of the line, as far as your body is concerned. Horrible pain, or total fatigue, or a combination of the two and more, and even adrenaline isn't keeping you up anymore. The only thing that's keeping you moving is sheer, grim determination. Kill the fucker. Or keep conscious long enough to crawl away under a dumpster and maybe survive another day. Or something else, depending on the character. When the Stun track is full and the runner is incapacitated, it represents the total expediture of that part of your psyche that can keep your body active when everything else, including the body itself, is just trying to collapse into a heap of Jell-O. The PC, quite simply, can't take anymore. Everyone has their limits, and the PC has reached theirs. They collapse, unconscious, overwhelmed, or otherwise incapacitated and simply cannot continue, no matter the circumstances. Interpreting the Stun track that way puts a lot of the complaints here into some degree of perspective, though, of course, a series of boxes can never adequately describe or represent a complicated human action, reaction, thought process, or heroic effort. For some, it will remain a series of boxes. YMMV. But I like it. [edit]: As a side note, the description above certainly doesn't preclude the very strong possibility that a runner, faced with a very painful experience, such as being shot with or without armor, will not attempt to get away from the source of that pain as quickly as possible, even if it's just behind the nearest cover for a second to assess his wounds and collect himself before charging back into the fray. That's a very normal, very human reaction that isn't even remotely mitigated by training, experience, and a professional code. In fact, I would even go so far to submit that the described is the very definition of the combat-hardened, professional warrior versus the amateur, or the coward. The professional is the guy that, after checking his wounds and maybe even taking a moment to try to plug the new hole in his arm, will continue to do the job. The amateur or the coward will flee the scene, or hide indefinitely and pray that no one finds him and finishes him off. Standing out in the middle of your opponents' fields of fire isn't "professional", or "badass". It's stupid. This post has been edited by Geekkake: Mar 27 2006, 11:34 PM |
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Mar 27 2006, 11:43 PM
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#75
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Target Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 21-October 04 Member No.: 6,778 |
I finally got around to clicking that link and holy cow I nearly fell out of my chair laughing so damn hard! :rotfl: Otherwise, yeah, I agree: Shadowrunners are Shadowrunners because they are precisely the sort of people who can get shot at (or just plain shot) and keep going. It's why corporations are willing to spill so much cash for their services. Shadowrun isn't about roleplaying Joe Schmoe off the street. You're roleplaying professional mercenary. |
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Mar 28 2006, 12:02 AM
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#76
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I agree that in many situations that would be a good way of describing the Stun damage track. It doesn't help the nonpenetrating ballistic injury problem any, but works fine for many other scenarios. :) Oh, and in case you're like me and don't get the History Channel, you can always check out the Medal of Honor citations. Lots of folks with lethal injuries pulling off some crazy shit. |
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Mar 28 2006, 12:22 AM
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#77
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,313 |
Well, yeah, they spent Edge to invoke Dead Man's Trigger. What on earth does anything done by anyone with a lethal wound have to do with Stun damage? |
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Mar 28 2006, 12:40 AM
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#78
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
ehh... Dead Man's Trigger only works for one action, doesn't it?
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Mar 28 2006, 12:43 AM
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#79
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
It has a whole lot to do with the sub-thread that started somewhere around Geekkake's pain message, and with how simply being in lots of pain, or being massively injured, doesn't necessarily have anything to do with your ability to function.
mfb: Maybe it's some sort of extended action to command several company-level combat assaults from the front over some 48 hours. |
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Mar 28 2006, 12:53 AM
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#80
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,313 |
Or maybe the game doesn't perfectly model everything that real people can do.
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Mar 28 2006, 01:02 AM
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#81
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
true. however, if it's possible to model more accurate behavior, especially without increasing complexity... if you don't want to make armor overly effective, you could just allow armor to automatically buy hits. -1 DV for 4 points of armor.
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Mar 28 2006, 01:03 AM
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#82
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398 |
I don't remember anything saying that you fall unconscious at a full Physical track, just that you start dying.
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Mar 28 2006, 01:04 AM
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#83
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
page 53, under "Unconsciousness". mentions both physical and stun tracks.
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Mar 28 2006, 01:33 AM
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#84
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
I just got done reading the last three pages of that thread... holy shit. And is it just me, or has Critias quieted down his rants lately? And what would I have to do to be banned? I mean, if Creepwood didn't get banned, then I guess there isn't any harm in starting up another Desert Flame War.
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Mar 28 2006, 02:09 AM
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#85
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
I have to disagree with my comments not involving non-penetrating bullet wounds. In fact, I think it's particularly relevant. Like I said in my pain post, getting your ribs broken hurts. A lot. At the risk of pulling the usual Internet tough guy act, I'm pretty good with pain, because I was an active kid and had the tendency to fall out of trees and break limbs. Not to mention sports injuries. Breaking something hurts like a bastard. But as mfb mentioned, it usually hurts less the day of the injury. This is largely due to adrenaline. Allow me an anecdote. I'm drinking, and as such, prone to lengthy anecdotes. There is a point, trust me. When I get in the aforementioned car accident, I hit a stone wall in a late model Lancer (this was around 2003) going about 40. I was a passenger, in front. I remember the wall approaching very fast, a half-second of impact. Then I was out. The next thing I remember is opening my eyes, and seeing dust everywhere. I can't breathe. The headlights are still on, but the hood is much, much higher than it should be. Turned out, it accordian'd in, as most modern cars do. There were weird lights everywhere, which turned out to be police cruisers. God knows how long I'd been out, and I didn't care, because I couldn't breathe. I pushed the airbag down, off my chest, and opened the door, promptly spilling out like a liquid onto the gravel beneath, not even able to gasp for breath. Slowly, face on the pavement, I could hear the driver crying and begging the cops to check on me (they wouldn't, more on that later). I was completely incapacitated. I have no idea how long it took me to move from no breath, to minute, painful breaths, to functional, painful breathing. And frankly, I had no idea what was going on. That gives you an idea of the impact involved, and the chest, lung, and diaphram effects of a 40 mph collision in a non-armored vehicle. To make a long, long story short, the cops weren't interested in helping anyone. I directly asked them to call an ambulance for my very obvious breathing issue, and the driver was bleeding substantially from her head while crying uncontrollably. The cops were more interested in if anyone was drinking. They didn't call an ambulance. They found some weed in the car (which hadn't been smoked prior to the accident), took the driver in, and told me to ride with the tow driver. I asked again for an ambulance, they refused. I later found out this was illegal, but both the driver and I had accepted our insurance settlements, the insurance companies told us we couldn't sue at that point - use that for corporate ruthlessness in the future. Two miles down the road, about 20 miles from my house, the tow truck driver told me the tow would cost a few hundred bucks. I informed him it wasn't my car, and I certainly didn't have that kind of money on me. I couldn't even time him, he kicked me out of the cab of the tow so fast. I have no idea where I am, my ribs are broken, my knee (which was fucked to begin with) is seriously messed up. I walk a half mile to a Circle K, in the middle of the night in the ghetto. I call a cab, and sit inside the Circle K, thanks to the kindness of the current clerk, staring blindly at the ground until the cab arrives. I gave my address, and passed out in the back. Just like that. The cab driver had a Hell of a time waking me up once we'd reached my house. I went inside, called my girlfriend (who my friend and I were supposed to pick up), and sat on the couch in the dark, shaking from an adrenaline hangover. I was still shaking when she found me. ... I regard the above story as 5-7 points of Stun damage. Confusion and pain, but adrenaline and willpower can keep you moving for awhile. As long as the exertion isn't too great. Get home, just get home. If you want realism, that's about as realistic as I can provide you, given that it really happened. You can push through substantial Stun damage, but you're fucked later. How does this relate to non-penetrating bullet wounds? The damage is about the same, for a person. Catching rounds in a vest causes broken ribs and contusions just like mine all the time. They're designed to keep you alive, not make you comfortable being shot. So you're alive. But trust me, you wish you weren't. Some folks don't wanna play this out, and that's fine with me. But without pain, momentary weakness, confusion, and other effects of damage, you're not being realistic. The frailty of the human form is realism. So don't bullshit people about "realism" when you're unwilling to have your character react to a 4 Stun intercepted bullet to the chest with dropping to all fours, hacking up a lung for a little while. |
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Mar 28 2006, 02:20 AM
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#86
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
dude, that's simply not realistic in a hell of a lot of cases. Level III vest against a 9mm parabellum, in the middle of a firefight? no, you're probably not going to go down and hack up a lung; you're certainly not going to see broken ribs. a long burst from a 9mm uzi? sure, you might get the breath knocked out of you. i'm still going to say that you probably won't see any ribs cracking, though i couldn't tell you for sure.
bullets simply don't hit hard enough to have the effects you're describing. every action has an equal and opposite reaction, remember? if the impact of a bullet could crack your ribs after being spread out by a good vest, it would certainly shatter the much-more-fragile bones of your hand through the receiver when you fired the bullet. i'll agree that taking S stun should probably slow you down pretty hard--but given that it should, taking hits on your vest shouldn't be resulting in S stun damage in the first place. also, not everybody responds to pain the same way--they don't even respond to pain the same way every time, within individuals. personally, i think SR3's knockdown rules simulated response to damage not-badly. if you take damage, you have a chance of going down, with more damage making it harder to stay up. and when you go down, it can be tough to get back up. if SR4's work similarly, you might consider using them, or modifying them so that they do work that way. [edited slightly to clarify my position] |
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Mar 28 2006, 02:26 AM
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#87
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Crit has been quiet in general, so don' t read too much into it. |
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Mar 28 2006, 03:46 AM
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#88
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
I will point out that there is a world of difference in firing a gun and being the poor SOB that catches the round, vest or not. As far as the physics of the projectile are concerned. When you fire a round properly, ther is no gap between you, the weapon, and the round, save for the very small space from the pin to the charge. but aside from that little hole in an otherwise unbroken chain. The force never impacts you, it passes through you because as a whole you are relatively 'solid' as far as the force concerned. Take a 12-gauge shotgun, hold it properly and fire downrange at your target, you feel the force, but it does not harm you. Now, hold the butt of the stock away from your body a half inch or so and fire the weapon again, notice the drastic difference. Now, imagine all of that kinetic force compressed to a, miniscule in comparison, surface area striking you. The force is magnified because it isn't spread out and you sure as anything are not bracing to be shot.
That is the main difference, brace properly and you might get sore after a few dozen rounds if you aren't used to it, brace improperly and you could dislocate a shoulder as the weapon slams into your impossible to prepare shoulder repeatedly. Body armor helps spread the force out to a manageable area, but you still are being impacted, it will still hurt. I've heard stories of police officers and soldiers who caught a round in the vest and had a cracked rib. They were sore, they were aching, but they were alive because of it. The only time to worry is when it doesn't hurt like hell. |
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Mar 28 2006, 03:59 AM
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#89
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
it depends on what kind of vest you've got. i'd bet most of those cracked ribs were behind II-A or II armor, rather than III-A or III. i'm assuming that III-A and III are ~rating 4 in SR4. if you were wearing rating 2 armor, sure, i can see cracked ribs from a handgun round. but at rating 4 or so, a hit from a handgun shouldn't be slowing you down much at all.
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