IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

4 Pages V  < 1 2 3 4 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> On the Run
Ophis
post Mar 29 2006, 07:44 PM
Post #26


Mystery Archaeologist
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,906
Joined: 19-September 05
From: The apple tree
Member No.: 7,760



Because, Techno's are an urban myth...

a fact missing from the book I know, but hey, someone from the freelancers mentioned this a while back. Synner I think.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dashifen
post Mar 29 2006, 07:49 PM
Post #27


Technomancer
********

Group: Retired Admins
Posts: 4,638
Joined: 2-October 02
From: Champaign, IL
Member No.: 3,374



And, if I remember correctly, the encryption lasts only as long as the sprite, so if it's not registered, the the encryption is temporary. Plus, if the sprite is derezzed in cybercombat, then the file is irreparably destroyed. One problem with data is that if it's important enough to encrypt, it's also usually necessary to be able to decrypt it someday and use that information.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cain
post Mar 29 2006, 07:51 PM
Post #28


Grand Master of Run-Fu
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,840
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Tir Tairngire
Member No.: 178



Oh, come on. Ultraviolet nodes are a myth as well, and plenty of corps invest in those. So are Deltaware clinics. And AI's. The fact that immortal elves are myths didn't stop Renraku from working with one. Corps will follow any myth, if it stands a chance of paying off.

The new otaku are gone over in detail in System Failure, and the corps have *got* to have eyes on the data havens. There's absolutely no reason why the megas wouldn't be intensely researching otaku abilities.

QUOTE
And, if I remember correctly, the encryption lasts only as long as the sprite, so if it's not registered, the the encryption is temporary. Plus, if the sprite is derezzed in cybercombat, then the file is irreparably destroyed. One problem with data is that if it's important enough to encrypt, it's also usually necessary to be able to decrypt it someday and use that information.

So register the sprite. No big deal. Corps use bound spirits on patrol all the time. And what you're describing can be as much of an advantage as a disadvantage-- if the file is forcibly taken, the competition can't use it against you. You might not want to do it on every sensitive file, but the really damaging ones are good candidates, and those are the ones shadowrunners would be most interested in. In the meanwhile, you can have the sprite hash/unhash the file as necessary. If it's a mid/low-force sprite, you can easily have it reregistered, and get a massive number of services out of it.

What's more, sprites don't count against the program limits of a node. A sprite can always run away, and let the Black Ice deal with the intruders. You reduce your risk of permanently losing your file, and in the meanwhile, you get unbreakable encryption on it, all for the price of hiring one otaku. Seems like quite a bargain for a security-conscious corp, wouldn't you say?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Butterblume
post Mar 29 2006, 08:01 PM
Post #29


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,150
Joined: 19-December 05
From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex
Member No.: 8,081



QUOTE (Cain)
The new otaku are gone over in detail in System Failure, and the corps have *got* to have eyes on the data havens.  There's absolutely no reason why the megas wouldn't be intensely researching otaku abilities.

I am actually thinking of running a campaign about this topic, inspired by the one remark that technomancers aren't common knowledge, yet.

One-time-pad-encryption is not decryptable, that is a proven mathematical fact (i think), under the assumption that you can get really random numbers (and it cannot be proven, that something is really random ;) ).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ophis
post Mar 29 2006, 08:04 PM
Post #30


Mystery Archaeologist
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,906
Joined: 19-September 05
From: The apple tree
Member No.: 7,760



I think someone already had that idea.

The first big plot book is called Emergance and will apparently have perception altering ramifications for the matrix...

I just wonder what will emerge.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
neko128
post Mar 29 2006, 10:43 PM
Post #31


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 327
Joined: 28-January 06
Member No.: 8,209



QUOTE (Cain)
QUOTE (mdynna @ Mar 29 2006, 12:15 PM)
I think the point being raised is now: why can't I implement this with my Commlink to make it unbreakable?

As soon as you introduce the idea of an "unbreakable" code into the game world you have to answer why every corp or paranoid Shadowrunner hasn't implemented it yet.

Because it's limited to relatively short messages. The longer your message, the more likely that a pattern will emerge, and your encryption can be cracked. You'd have to generate an insanely long string to encrypt even short files; one-time pads are best used for quick messages in shorthand.

And there is an "unbreakable" code in the books. The hash power of fault sprites. Which does lead to the question you're posing-- why hasn't every corporation invested in otaku as heavily as they have in mages? *Especially* with this sort of security availiable?

Actually, that's not true; you're not limited to short messages, you're limited to messages no larger than your key. However, if you have a message larger than your key, you can use more than one key to encrypt it in pieces, and have it reassembled at the far end.

If you want to encrypt a file on a commlink unbreakably, you CAN do this; the problem becomes, where do you store the encryption key? Without said key, it can't be unencrypted. This explains perfectly why the disk is not decryptable; it's an unbreakable cypher whose key they don't have.

You can't use this for network traffic, because every recipient and transmitter to use this would have to have an extensive library of unique keys, known to the other end of the transmission, and used in the correct order at the correct time. This isn't possible.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cain
post Mar 29 2006, 10:50 PM
Post #32


Grand Master of Run-Fu
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,840
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Tir Tairngire
Member No.: 178



QUOTE
Actually, that's not true; you're not limited to short messages, you're limited to messages no larger than your key. However, if you have a message larger than your key, you can use more than one key to encrypt it in pieces, and have it reassembled at the far end.

True, but as Butterblume pointed out, that assumes that your pad was drawn up in a perfectly random method. The longer your key is, the more likely it is that patterns will crop up, allowing your pad to be broken. So, the shorter, the better.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
James McMurray
post Mar 29 2006, 10:53 PM
Post #33


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,430
Joined: 10-January 05
From: Fort Worth, Texas
Member No.: 6,957



Not if you use the aforementioned cosmic radiation method. The key doesn't have to be someting rememberable, or even intelligible.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cain
post Mar 29 2006, 11:00 PM
Post #34


Grand Master of Run-Fu
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,840
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Tir Tairngire
Member No.: 178



As Butterblume also pointed out, it's impossible to prove that anything's perfectly random. Even that method has flaws, and can sometimes produce patterns that can be cracked. It's a lot more secure than most, I'll grant, but you're still running a greater risk with a longer key.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Azathfeld
post Mar 29 2006, 11:12 PM
Post #35


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 135
Joined: 27-February 06
Member No.: 8,313



QUOTE (James McMurray)
Not if you use the aforementioned cosmic radiation method. The key doesn't have to be someting rememberable, or even intelligible.

There's no basis for the assumption that cosmic background radiation levels in a particular spot are actually random, rather than pseudo-random. Granted, they're not generated by people, and thus not likely to display human patterns, but natural phenomena generally do have a detectable pattern to them.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ranneko
post Mar 29 2006, 11:13 PM
Post #36


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 349
Joined: 16-January 05
Member No.: 6,984



Computers are able to produce psuedo-random numbers that are random enough today.

The tricky thing is of course while it is impossible to break a message if you use a one-time pad once, if you make the mistake of reusing a one-time pad it becomes trivial to break.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hyzmarca
post Mar 29 2006, 11:31 PM
Post #37


Midnight Toker
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,686
Joined: 4-July 04
From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop
Member No.: 6,456



With enough computing power anything can be decrypted by brute force, even a one time pad. One just has to keep trying keys untill you get a message that makes sense.

The difference is that the one time pad requres significantly more computing power because the decrypting program must be able to determine if a result makes sense or not.

Presuming that the message itself is writen in a known language and follows standard syntax rules an AI could brute force it. It isn't foolproof. With countless trillions of possibile keys it is possible for an incorrect key to produce a grammerically and contextually correct sentence.

Pseudo-random numbers produced by computers aren't random at all, however. The algorythims ar eentirely deterministic and thus it is possible to know exactly which number will be chosen in what order with enough information.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
James McMurray
post Mar 29 2006, 11:37 PM
Post #38


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,430
Joined: 10-January 05
From: Fort Worth, Texas
Member No.: 6,957



No, the AI could brute force out a message of the right length that makes sense. There's absolutely no way to ensure that the message you banged on keys to get is the actual message.

XX YY ZZZ2 means "Go Up Yes." Your code breaker is just as likely to stop at "Is it bad?" because it makes sense, and will probably bypass go up yes altogether.

That brings up another method of encryption: vague words and slang. A message encrypted to mean "chill it out." will mean totally difference things to a Springer guest and a chemist.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shrike30
post Mar 30 2006, 01:01 AM
Post #39


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,556
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Seattle
Member No.: 98



Or you could do what a bunch of the orignial 3133+15+5 (eleetists) were actually trying to accomplish when l33t got invented, and use a total hash of characters that actually means something to the person on the recieving end. Or do what people did in CP2020, and "invent" a language (and pass out chips for it to the people you want to be able to speak it) that consists of real words assigned cosmic-radiation-randomized meanings ("Fish table or yuck!" translates to "I don't want that!"). Or you could nest cyphers within cyphers... it's not like we don't have enough computing power on hand to run a simple message through 20-30 cyphers instead of just one. Or you could send a digital waveform of someone speaking the message, rather than just the characters... we've got the storage space and the processor power to make one-time pads large enough to allow this.

The point here is not to make an unbreakable code. The point is to make one that's such a pain in the ass to decode (even for a dedicated SR4 AI with way too much time on it's hands), and takes so damn LONG to decode that nobody tries, or at least they don't succeed until years after it's too late.

Or you could just run Decrypt on it :P
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Azathfeld
post Mar 30 2006, 01:32 AM
Post #40


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 135
Joined: 27-February 06
Member No.: 8,313



QUOTE (Ranneko)
Computers are able to produce psuedo-random numbers that are random enough today.

If you mean software-based random number generators, then no, they haven't managed to create an RNG that will create an unbreakable code.

Computers have produced "random enough" numbers for things like one-time pads by being hooked up to some sort of theoretically random analog number method, like the aforementioned radiation detector, or Random.org's atmospheric noise system, but there's no mathematical proof that these things are actually random, and that programs 70 years from now won't be able to crack them. It's just that no one's cracked one yet--that we know of.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
James McMurray
post Mar 30 2006, 01:36 AM
Post #41


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,430
Joined: 10-January 05
From: Fort Worth, Texas
Member No.: 6,957



We know 2070 isn't that time, because apparently On The Run has an unbreakable code in it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cain
post Mar 30 2006, 02:22 AM
Post #42


Grand Master of Run-Fu
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,840
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Tir Tairngire
Member No.: 178



QUOTE
That brings up another method of encryption: vague words and slang. A message encrypted to mean "chill it out." will mean totally difference things to a Springer guest and a chemist.

That's not encryption, that's encoding. And it only works for relatively simple messages. You can send a message that means: "Start overly complicated plan X"; but you can't actually describe what plan X is using this sort of code. You certainly can't send out a set of detailed schematics for the latest tech-toy that way.
QUOTE
Or you could do what a bunch of the orignial 3133+15+5 (eleetists) were actually trying to accomplish when l33t got invented, and use a total hash of characters that actually means something to the person on the recieving end. Or do what people did in CP2020, and "invent" a language (and pass out chips for it to the people you want to be able to speak it) that consists of real words assigned cosmic-radiation-randomized meanings ("Fish table or yuck!" translates to "I don't want that!").

Unfortunately, that's way too easy to crack, if you manage to get a hold of the chip/someone who understands l33t. If you get ahold of a one time pad key, it only works for that one message. If you get ahold of a translator for your language tricks, you've lost your entire code. (This was a premise in the movie Windtalkers-- the Navajo was to be killed instead of letting him fall into enemy hands for this very reason.)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
b1ffov3rfl0w
post Mar 30 2006, 06:13 AM
Post #43


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 464
Joined: 3-March 06
From: CalFree
Member No.: 8,329



QUOTE (Ophis)
Because, Techno's are an urban myth...
ink.

In the text at the start of one of the sections, a guy is talking about the reason he became a shadowrunner. Had to do with the corp he and his wife worked for finding out she might have technomancer potential, trying to realize that potential, and horribly killing her in the process, I think.

So, yeah, they're working on it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dranem
post Mar 30 2006, 10:32 AM
Post #44


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,000
Joined: 17-November 05
From: Halifax, Canada
Member No.: 7,975



QUOTE (Cain)
And there is an "unbreakable" code in the books. The hash power of fault sprites. Which does lead to the question you're posing-- why hasn't every corporation invested in otaku as heavily as they have in mages? *Especially* with this sort of security availiable?

Find an Otaku or Technomancer who'd be willing to work for a corp is more likely harder than actually tracking one down...

It would be like asking an atheist to work in the catholic church.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
fistandantilus4....
post Mar 30 2006, 11:39 AM
Post #45


Uncle Fisty
**********

Group: Admin
Posts: 13,891
Joined: 3-January 05
From: Next To Her
Member No.: 6,928



I'm wondering how they're supposed to be making 'new'technomancers, since the existing ones were all people that were in the system during the crash. A bit different from Otaku. I also don't see how the otaku are supposed to automatically become technomancers when they 'grow up'. Hopefully this will all be explained in Unwired. Unless I simply missed something in SR4 or SF that covers that.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Crusher Bob
post Mar 30 2006, 12:37 PM
Post #46


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,598
Joined: 15-March 03
From: Hong Kong
Member No.: 4,253



Once you have your random numbers (for your OTP generated) you run statistical tools on them and look for patterns (in case somethnig went wrong with your random number generator). If you find patterns in the OTP, you throw it away and use the next one (or get a new entropy source). However, random numbers based on radioactive deacy do appear to be completely random, you just have to make sure that your data dosen't randomly have patterns in it.

Of course, the failures of encryption are almost never due to actual breaks in the cypher text, but instead some failure of the human elements involved. In general, much 'cheaper' encryption is also esentally unbreakable, so OTP are hardly used for anything.


Of course in SR, all non-OTP encryption seems to be trivially breakable, so your only option is to go with the expensive and tedious OTP.

In general there are three 'strengths' of encryption that anyone will want to use:

Tactical/short term:
decryption time: hours/days where the decryption of the information is only useful for a very shotr amount of time. For example, if the team's tactical radios can becrypted only after 4 hours of work, then the fact that 4 hours ago, you said 'shoot the guy on the left' may not be that helpful. Notice that the team must practice comm discipline, and not discuss anything of 'in the open' or of significance:

Example of good como use:
Infil team to fire support team: "Egressing via route bravo, we will rejoin you at rally point Silver"

So, notice that things that might have some long term significance, such as the route the team will be using, and where the rally point is are 'encrypted' with 'idiot code', and thus are unavailable to someone breaking the comms encryption.

Long Term:
This is the stuff that you deal with on a day to day basis, it might be harmful if revealed, even after everyone involved is dead. You'll want the decryption times to be in the hundreds of years (remember to future proof your encrpytion schemes).

For all time:
This is the stuff that can never get out. It's what you use OTP for.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mdynna
post Mar 30 2006, 03:37 PM
Post #47


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 371
Joined: 10-January 06
From: Regina
Member No.: 8,145



Getting back to On the Run... here's a thought I had. Why can't the PC's totally decrypt the message? What would be so terrible about it? They'd try and sell it? The adventure already makes provisions for what would happen to the PC's should they attempt that. Otherwise, its just for their "private listening". I'm thinking this to avoid the whole mess of the "unbreakable code".
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
neko128
post Mar 30 2006, 04:11 PM
Post #48


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 327
Joined: 28-January 06
Member No.: 8,209



QUOTE (Azathfeld)
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Mar 29 2006, 05:53 PM)
Not if you use the aforementioned cosmic radiation method. The key doesn't have to be someting rememberable, or even intelligible.

There's no basis for the assumption that cosmic background radiation levels in a particular spot are actually random, rather than pseudo-random. Granted, they're not generated by people, and thus not likely to display human patterns, but natural phenomena generally do have a detectable pattern to them.

You can make the argument that NOTHING'S random, because - in theory, with enough information on the quantum level - you can predict everything. In actuality, that's not possible; there's no way to measure the quantum interactions of most things. There are a large class of things (radioactive decay and cosmic radiation, for example) that are EXTREMELY predictable over the long term (half-life, and cosmic radiation density, for example) but are - without perfect information on the quantum makeup of the source - completely impossible to predict on the short term... And that's why they're useful.

The cosmic-radiation method DOES show patterns - it tends to generate perfect 50/50 behavior... Over extremely large samples. On small samples, it shows all the normal characteristics of a random distribution with no pattern detectable... Because it's generated by unpredictable natural behavior.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
neko128
post Mar 30 2006, 04:15 PM
Post #49


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 327
Joined: 28-January 06
Member No.: 8,209



QUOTE (James McMurray)
No, the AI could brute force out a message of the right length that makes sense. There's absolutely no way to ensure that the message you banged on keys to get is the actual message.

XX YY ZZZ2 means "Go Up Yes." Your code breaker is just as likely to stop at "Is it bad?" because it makes sense, and will probably bypass go up yes altogether.

That brings up another method of encryption: vague words and slang. A message encrypted to mean "chill it out." will mean totally difference things to a Springer guest and a chemist.

Exactly; this is the beauty of a one-time pad. It's trivial to create a decrypted message, and provably impossible to prove it's the correct message without information that makes decryption pointless.

And even if hyzmarca's argument weren't wrong, it's still based on the un-safe assumption that the underlying message contains words available in the dictionary, formed in a gramatically correct way.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
neko128
post Mar 30 2006, 04:17 PM
Post #50


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 327
Joined: 28-January 06
Member No.: 8,209



QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
Once you have your random numbers (for your OTP generated) you run statistical tools on them and look for patterns (in case somethnig went wrong with your random number generator). If you find patterns in the OTP, you throw it away and use the next one (or get a new entropy source). However, random numbers based on radioactive deacy do appear to be completely random, you just have to make sure that your data dosen't randomly have patterns in it.

No, this is exactly the wrong thing to do. If you're generating random numbers, you should NEVER profile them like this. Random number streams will regularly have "false patterns"; periods where it appears to be having non-random behavior, but those periods are meaningless over the long term.

By doing what you're suggesting here, you're CREATING a pattern, and opening it up to mathematical analysis based on the pattern your creating. If your source of numbers is sound in the first place, this is significantly worse than useless; and if your source isn't sound, this won't help.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

4 Pages V  < 1 2 3 4 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 6th August 2025 - 01:13 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.