 Force 10 Manaballs, Should I be worried |
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 Mar 27 2006, 09:27 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 137 Joined: 21-February 06 From: Lenexa, Kansas (Yes Kansas, we ain't all hicks y'all.) Member No.: 8,291  |
My friends and I have been chatting and came up with a hypothetical.
Make a mage. Give him 5 willpower and 5 logic (not a terribly unreasonable thing for a mage.) Give him a magic of 5 (also not unreasonable), a Spellcasting skill group of 4 and buy him a spellcasting (combat) focus rating 2 or 3 (whatever one can get at creation.) Let's say he has an Edge of 4. His turn comes up in the Big Fight. He overcasts a force 10 manaball. He rolls 13 dice (Magic+Sorcery+Edge.) If he gets even one net success over his opponents willpower + counterspelling (if any) roll he does at least 11 damage. To everyone in the area of the spell. He then rolls 12 or 13 dice against the drain which has a value of 8. He gets 4 hits on average leaving him with a grand total of 4 points of physical damage whilst his enemies heads all a-splode. If he is merely obliterating one guy the drain is two less. Leaving him with a mild injury and the satisfaction of having one-shotted the biggest badass on the field. How worried should I be about this, because let me tell you, I'm a little worried. |
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Mar 27 2006, 09:34 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 19-January 04 Member No.: 5,992 |
Are you adding in any other kinds of penalties, such as vision modifiers?
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Mar 27 2006, 09:34 PM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 21-October 04 Member No.: 6,778 |
You bring up a good point. But at the same time, if your GM makes you go up against this sort of thing constantly, it's time to stuff his head into the toilet and flush.
As a GM myself, I could conceivably have every single goon the PC's go up against be wearing a gyro harness with a Ingram WhiteKnight LMG attached to it, with perhaps some EX Explosive Ammo for good measure. They do nothing but fire narrow bursts on full-auto. But I don't... because it's NOT FUN. While we all may giggle and joke about sadistic GMs, ones who are truely that way aren't doing anything more than wasting people's time. |
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Mar 27 2006, 09:40 PM
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#4
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
You could worry, if you want to. I prefer not to and remember that an NPC can have an appreciably lower life-span and representation in a game. If the players start dropping Force 10 spells all the time, I see no reason why an NPC couldn't as well. If that's the power level of your game, then it seems fine to me. Just makes Counterspelling that much more important.
This is also why I often put up a mana barrier around NPC troops. My players didn't understand why until the team's mage tried to cast through the barrier and remembered that targets behind a mana barrier add the Force of the barrier to their magic resistance test. Add a sustaining focus, or a handy bound spirit, to hold the spell for the enemy mage and you've got basically another source of Counterspelling dice that are added to the already counterspelled team providing Attribute + Counterspelling + Barrier Force dice to resist. Now the caster probably takes drain and the spell may not even do anything to some of the targets. |
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Mar 27 2006, 09:47 PM
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#5
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
A little is ok, everything more is too much. Combat Spells aren't that impressive anymore. |
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Mar 27 2006, 09:50 PM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
Like they told me in my second week of military service: spread out, so one grenade won't catch you all.
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Mar 27 2006, 09:53 PM
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#7
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
..yeah, grenades on the other hand...
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Mar 27 2006, 09:56 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 100 Joined: 10-March 06 Member No.: 8,355 |
Yes loose formation is definately handy, then again if theres that amount of enemies point their weapons at the group they probably don't have a hope in hells chance of actually getting out of the situation save using the force 10 ball spell to "clear a way out"
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Mar 27 2006, 10:06 PM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
Might be better to cast a bolt on three differents targets then ...
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Mar 27 2006, 10:23 PM
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#10
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Target Group: Members Posts: 72 Joined: 28-March 05 Member No.: 7,251 |
The Magic + Sorcery is good enough for most targets. Save the Edge for when there are mages around. Min/max the character a bit more and it starts to get even more out of hand. Here is one for you: Stunbolt (F/2-1 drain). Cast at Force 9 yields 4 physical drain. Your mage will on average soak all the drain, and he will be dealing 10+ points of stun to his targets. Use a sustaining focus to give himself extra initiative passes, and do it three times per combat turn for extra fun! edit: btw, manaball has a drain value of F/2+2. If you cast it at force 10 it will have 7 physical drain not 8. Cast it at force 9 and it will have 6 physical drain. |
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 Mar 27 2006, 10:32 PM
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#11
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,509 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
3 actually, Drain is rounded down. Bye Thanee |
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Mar 27 2006, 10:34 PM
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#12
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Target Group: Members Posts: 72 Joined: 28-March 05 Member No.: 7,251 |
Thanks, my mistake. :) |
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Mar 27 2006, 10:37 PM
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#13
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
1) Goon-level bad guys with Body ratings of 3 will indeed likely get one-shotted by this spell. That's okay; that's what they're there for. Fortunately, those goons will have effectively given the offending mage a 4P wound with their deaths. 2) Goon-level bad guys are indeed squishy, but they also like to come in waves. 4P drain gets inconvenient when you stack it up a few times over the course of a single firefight. 3) Even goon-level bad guys can know when to duck for cover and start lobbing grenades or blind-fire sprays at a magician's position. 4) If your mage is casting at Force 10, then even mundanes will see it coming: The threshold to spot spellcasting is (6-Force), meaning anything over Force 5 is superobvious. The mage might get away with his big whammy once, but then you can bet he's going to be Target Number One for future return fire. Until someone else on the team does something more frightening, of course. 5) Non-goon bad guys -- lieutenant and big boss types -- are potentially going to have a good amount of defenses. I'm not talking just dedicated Counterspelling overwatch, but also things like higher attributes, platelet factories, high pain tolerance, and whatnot. If you build your big baddies too fragile (or too exposed), then you're going to have some shortlived masterminds. 6) Non-goon bad guys have a decent supply of Edge. They absolutely should not use it for anything except survival. Don't use it to attack the PCs; that makes the encounter more unsatisfactorily deadly. However, if your mastermind just refuses to die despite all odds, then his eventual downfall will feel all the sweeter to the PCs. |
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Mar 27 2006, 11:06 PM
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#14
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
The fact that most targets of a spell have only half of the casting mages dice pool makes combat spells really nasty. |
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Mar 27 2006, 11:25 PM
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#15
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Target Group: Members Posts: 60 Joined: 12-October 05 Member No.: 7,836 |
From my viewpoint magic should be nasty. Going up against a mage should be something any mundane thinks at least twice about. Not only would spells be one of the best ways to see you dead, but if roleplayed right most mundanes shouldn't know much about what they're facing, at least if they don't have the relevant knowledge skills.
Let the mage cast that force 10 spell if he wants to because if the drain hits even as low as average he should really stay hidden for the rest of the fight. You have to remember: every time a character takes damage in Shadowrun that character becomes a bit more weakened and prone to take more damage, both in the form that they're easier to hit again and stand less chance of resisting. |
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Mar 28 2006, 12:40 AM
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#16
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
My understanding of the rules is that damage/drain resistance are one of the things that wound modifiers specifically do NOT apply to.
Yes, combat spells are frightening and dangerous. They can kill a whole lot of undefended goons in one easy shot. Of course, so can grenades, gasses, autofire, and all that other good stuff runners keep in their pockets. Magic is just one of those things that most characters don't have the option of using, so it always seems a little out of whack. |
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Mar 28 2006, 12:52 AM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,313 |
Is there a mage on the other side? Say, one with an entirely reasonable Magic 5 and Counterspelling 4? Perhaps with a Counterspell focus (much cheaper than a Spellcasting focus)? Suddenly, the mage has a very good chance of rolling his dice, taking his drain, and doing not a dang thing. Mages aren't common, but when there's one on both sides things are more likely to turn into a Lo Pan/Egg Shen staring contest than big balls of light flying in all directions. This certainly doesn't make magicians worthless, but it's a check on their power. Some yahoo with a bag of grenades can do nearly as much damage, but do it more often, do it without damaging himself, and keep doing it even if someone on the other team has grenades. |
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Mar 28 2006, 01:19 AM
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#18
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
What does the other magician's Magic rating have to do with anything? -Frank |
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Mar 28 2006, 01:25 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,313 |
Nothing, actually, I was just mimicking the original post's structure too closely. |
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Mar 28 2006, 01:27 AM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 137 Joined: 21-February 06 From: Lenexa, Kansas (Yes Kansas, we ain't all hicks y'all.) Member No.: 8,291 |
Good points all around, although I still worry about the ability of mage to do this, especially when the lower drain code was pointed out. However, I think the quote above is my favorite thing to keep in mind. When every bullet in the next security teams guns has the mages name on it, that will teach them the joys of spells with low force ratings. ;) Plus, there is a certain amount of gentleman's agreement going on. After all, it cuts both ways. Sort of like in my old D&D games. Sure, go ahead and use the Harm spell all you want, your next encounter is against half a dozen evil 11th level clerics. |
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Mar 28 2006, 03:47 AM
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#21
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Or as I have said to many groups, Snipe unto the NPC's as they shall snipe unto you.
The balance of power doth swing like a pendulem do. |
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Mar 28 2006, 04:35 AM
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#22
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
Buy the time your puling out the force 10 mana ball being observed buy remaining combatants; you’re on your way out, if you weren’t before you are now.
Any plan that calls for that kind of fire power on the way in is a bad plan. Edward |
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Mar 28 2006, 04:58 AM
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#23
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Target Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 21-October 04 Member No.: 6,778 |
Ed's got a point. In previous editions of Shadowrun that I've played, my Samurai characters usually carried grenades with them when hitting an objective. But they hardly ever used them... only when the shit hit the fan in a big way did he ever bother to pull them out, because he had to do anything and everything he could to ensure the survival of himself and his team. Otherwise, heavy ordinance like that draws exactly the sort of attention that you don't want. |
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Mar 28 2006, 06:50 AM
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#24
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
Now I think about it the mana ball could be useful on the way in, provided the hides the caster from observation of anybody not in the effect. They can’t identify you as the caster if there not seeing you at all. And no messy explosions.
example, take out the lobby guards before entering the building. Probably better using stun ball however. Lower drain and stun tracks are shorter. If you really want them dead stab them in the throat with your combat knife after. Not the best plan in the world but sometimes mercenary tactics are called for. And its only useful while the plan is going of perfectly (otherwise your probably going to be observed. Edward |
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Mar 28 2006, 02:24 PM
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#25
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Target Group: Members Posts: 3 Joined: 1-March 06 Member No.: 8,324 |
How about the big bad astral signature left behind after the fire fight that is used to track him, because the employer of said goons is really pissed.
This is called Shadowrun, not Battlefield Earth. If your team wants to blow stuff up and make noise, simply have people notice and come looking for them. |
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