IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Cybercombat, AR vs VR
GrinderTheTroll
post Mar 28 2006, 11:17 PM
Post #1


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,754
Joined: 9-July 04
From: Modesto, CA
Member No.: 6,465



Hi all,

I was just reading the Matrix section about AR and VR and all the differences between them. SR4 (sorry no page reference) says while in Cybercombat in AR use your non-matrix initiative, in VR(cold) use your matrix initiative and add +1 IP and in VR(hot) use matrix initiative +1 and add +2 IP. I realized that fighting in the matrix would be best done in VR since IC/Agents act at digital speed (+2 IP, etc) while you move at meatbody speeds.

This got me thinking, could a hacker use Wired 2 (or some other method) to boost their non-matrix iniative up to get +2 or +3 IP while still only in AR mode? You'd forfit the other benefits (or hazzards) of VR but could obviously fight like a champ while on the move and not all noodly.

Please, your comments are welcome!

Thanks,

~GTT
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jeremymia
post Mar 28 2006, 11:41 PM
Post #2


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 1-July 05
Member No.: 7,477



Seems that way, and why not? Imagine a man with extremely fast fingers typing at a keyboard. There is a theoretical speed that he types that matches someone who is full VR.

The real crime is that someone with wired 3 will be more effective in AR than VR.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jaid
post Mar 28 2006, 11:47 PM
Post #3


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 6,978
Joined: 4-October 05
Member No.: 7,813



except for the other full VR modifiers.

which can make a pretty hefty difference.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Horror
post Mar 29 2006, 05:24 AM
Post #4


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 72
Joined: 28-March 05
Member No.: 7,251




I have issues with a wired hacker being almost as effective as a hot sim hacker (he doesn't get the +2 hot sim dice, but can't get fried by Black IC either).

To handle that I houseruled that a character can only use 1 IP per combat turn to manipulate the matrix via AR. Cold sim allows 2 IP per combat turn, hot sim 3 IP. The wired hacker is still great as he can do other actions whilst hacking with AR (ie fire a gun, run for cover, etc).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rooks
post Mar 29 2006, 06:13 AM
Post #5


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 100
Joined: 10-March 06
Member No.: 8,355



but at a -6 penalty no?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dranem
post Mar 29 2006, 10:50 AM
Post #6


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,000
Joined: 17-November 05
From: Halifax, Canada
Member No.: 7,975



Considering any hacking is still mostly mental gymnastics, I wouldn't give any bonuses for a hacker with wired reflexes. Hacking uses your logic attribute, not your agility or reaction, so it is not a physical task and can not benefit from reflex enhancements.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nick012000
post Mar 29 2006, 11:03 AM
Post #7


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,283
Joined: 17-May 05
Member No.: 7,398



By RAW, yes, they do.

If you're smart, though, you'll be playing a Hacking Adept, rather than a Wired Reflexes sammie. That way, you'll get Improved Ability bonus dice to your hacking skills, and 4 IPs when you start out.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MaxHunter
post Mar 29 2006, 04:58 PM
Post #8


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 718
Joined: 10-September 05
From: Montevideo, in the elusive shadows of Latin America
Member No.: 7,727



But using Improved Ability to enhance matrix skills is so cheesy...

Yeah, it's allowed in the BBB, but you don't have to like it.

In my games I GMfiated it out of existance due to personal distaste.

Cheers,

Max
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Azralon
post Mar 29 2006, 05:03 PM
Post #9


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,651
Joined: 23-September 05
From: Marietta, GA
Member No.: 7,773



QUOTE (The Horror)
I have issues with a wired hacker being almost as effective as a hot sim hacker (he doesn't get the +2 hot sim dice, but can't get fried by Black IC either).

There's also the fact that the "probing the system" technique of hacking takes hours in VR and days in AR.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hobgoblin
post Mar 29 2006, 09:17 PM
Post #10


panda!
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,331
Joined: 8-March 02
From: north of central europe
Member No.: 2,242



who probes? real men brute force :P
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Azralon
post Mar 29 2006, 09:33 PM
Post #11


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,651
Joined: 23-September 05
From: Marietta, GA
Member No.: 7,773



QUOTE (hobgoblin)
real men brute force :P

Sure, but some hackers are elves. ;)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hobgoblin
post Mar 29 2006, 09:37 PM
Post #12


panda!
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,331
Joined: 8-March 02
From: north of central europe
Member No.: 2,242



darn imortal daisy eaters!
you could have a probe set in years, and a firewall in the tripple digits and they would still get in (alltho the chance of a glitch, never mind a critical glitch, makes things interesting)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Teulisch
post Mar 29 2006, 09:54 PM
Post #13


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 565
Joined: 7-January 04
Member No.: 5,965



i dont see any reason to try to force the new rules to mimic the old rules. under old rules, cyberdecks were incredibly comples machines, and now we have these simple commlinks.

wired reflex are good for a LOT of things. and they are expensive to get. if someone sinks the resources into the cyber, it should work as per the rules. cold and hot sim provide a simple way for non-cybered characters to be effective hackers. you just face higher risk when you run with less augmentation.

really, you have a choice of moving at meat speeds (which can get you up to 4 actions a round), or at digital speed (which can get you 3 actions per turn, and extra dice, but is higher risk). AR will be the only option in many situations, now that the standard is for the hacker to go in physicaly with the rest of the team, instead of staying safe at home where only the black IC and trace programs can get him killed. do we really want to force someone to use hot sim in the middle of a gunfight, with bullets, gernades, magic, and spirits all put your meatbody in mortal danger? a smart hacker will have wired reflexes.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Azathfeld
post Mar 29 2006, 09:56 PM
Post #14


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 135
Joined: 27-February 06
Member No.: 8,313



QUOTE (The Horror)
I have issues with a wired hacker being almost as effective as a hot sim hacker (he doesn't get the +2 hot sim dice, but can't get fried by Black IC either).

To handle that I houseruled that a character can only use 1 IP per combat turn to manipulate the matrix via AR. Cold sim allows 2 IP per combat turn, hot sim 3 IP. The wired hacker is still great as he can do other actions whilst hacking with AR (ie fire a gun, run for cover, etc).

I don't have any issues with a hacker who wants to invest the extra nuyen and essence into being a phenomenal AR hacker. It's all about opportunity costs, here. Honestly, Black IC isn't terribly dangerous to begin with, so you're not saving yourself much. DVs on Blackout and Black Hammer are, at worst, 6, and agents don't get to have all of the bonuses available that meatbody attackers do (specializations, smartlinks, etc.).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
GrinderTheTroll
post Mar 29 2006, 10:03 PM
Post #15


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,754
Joined: 9-July 04
From: Modesto, CA
Member No.: 6,465



QUOTE (Teulisch)
i dont see any reason to try to force the new rules to mimic the old rules. under old rules, cyberdecks were incredibly comples machines, and now we have these simple commlinks. 

wired reflex are good for a LOT of things. and they are expensive to get. if someone sinks the resources into the cyber, it should work as per the rules. cold and hot sim provide a simple way for non-cybered characters to be effective hackers. you just face higher risk when you run with less augmentation.

really, you have a choice of moving at meat speeds (which can get you up to 4 actions a round), or at digital speed (which can get you 3 actions per turn, and extra dice, but is higher risk). AR will be the only option in many situations, now that the standard is for the hacker to go in physicaly with the rest of the team, instead of staying safe at home where only the black IC and trace programs can get him killed. do we really want to force someone to use hot sim in the middle of a gunfight, with bullets, gernades, magic, and spirits all put your meatbody in mortal danger? a smart hacker will have wired reflexes.

Which is what I am feeling.

I feel good roleplaying with a GM who understands what's at stake helps make the best of the whole scenario.

Also makes for a nice HTR Decker. ;)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mdynna
post Mar 29 2006, 10:31 PM
Post #16


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 371
Joined: 10-January 06
From: Regina
Member No.: 8,145



I still think there's an excellent case to up the Interval for Hacking on-the-fly through AR. I don't care how Wired you are, if you are using physical movements to manipulate your Commlink you will never be faster than someone using "pure" mental commands. And no, AR mode always uses some "physical" commands, it can never be "purely" mental.

If you make the AR interval = 1 Combat Round (and assuming that Hacking is not an "exclusive" action) then that is the same as the houserule of "1 Matrix action per round".
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
GrinderTheTroll
post Mar 30 2006, 12:23 AM
Post #17


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,754
Joined: 9-July 04
From: Modesto, CA
Member No.: 6,465



QUOTE (mdynna)
I still think there's an excellent case to up the Interval for Hacking on-the-fly through AR.  I don't care how Wired you are, if you are using physical movements to manipulate your Commlink you will never be faster than someone using "pure" mental commands.  And no, AR mode always uses some "physical" commands, it can never be "purely" mental.

If you make the AR interval  = 1 Combat Round (and assuming that Hacking is not an "exclusive" action) then that is the same as the houserule of "1 Matrix action per round".

Hence the +2 dice pool to all Matrix tests, which is huge compared to AR only.

I mean getting to act 3 times in a Combat Turn to Matrix goings-on doesn't leave you much to do with the real-world anyways aside from not get shot, which is what you do in full-VR anyways.

Aside from not loosing extra IP when shifting from VR->AR, the pros and cons seem to balance out for the most part.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 20th April 2019 - 04:53 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.