Flaw: Homemade Telesma. |
Flaw: Homemade Telesma. |
Mar 29 2006, 07:56 PM
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#1
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
This is an extension of the "no foci flaw" argument. If the magician was unable to use telesma and foci that weren't made by him, I would argue that he would get around 10 BP. I mean, if he ever wants to use foci, he would have to get an entire skill group to do it. Having to possess a skill group himself to get an edge may be more debilitating than not being able to have that skill group and being able to buy things to make up for it. Thoughts?
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Mar 29 2006, 07:58 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,313 |
Seems fine to me, although at the moment you'll need to homebrew rules for building foci.
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Mar 29 2006, 08:01 PM
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#3
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
Would this include having to make his own orihalcum? That would be the biggest pain ever.
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Mar 30 2006, 01:01 AM
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#4
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
well, yes.
although, technically speaking, you don't *need* orichalchum. it just makes things a lot easier. |
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Mar 30 2006, 01:13 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,313 |
I wouldn't require the character to make his own materials, not for 10 points. Just spend half the price of the focus for materials, and use the Build/Repair rules to create the focus. Probably Force x 3 for threshold, and an interval based on the focus type, e.g., one month per point of Karma multiplier in the bonding cost (2 months per roll for a sustaining focus, 8 months for a power focus).
Now, as a 20-point flaw, you could require the character to put materials together through a gathering skill, and only then make the focus with those personally-gathered materials. |
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Mar 30 2006, 06:05 AM
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#6
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
Did they seriously take that long in earlier editions? And would spirit-gathered materials count? How hard would it be if he had a Salish-Shidhe passport?
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Mar 30 2006, 09:00 AM
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#7
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
That is a free 10 pts for characters who intend to always make their own anyway.
It depends on the campaign I guess. If time is not an issue (enough money and time between runs), 10 is too much. If you make up both flaws (this and "no foci") you´ll have to consider relative bp-gains. No foci at all needs to be higher, but not too high. |
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Mar 30 2006, 11:53 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,313 |
They didn't take that long a all in earlier editions, but I was basing the numbers on the time required to code a new program, which I thinik should probably be a similar timescale to focus creation. SR3's scale works out to more like one week per Karma point multiplier. However, those rules also include a lot of overcomplication that probably isn't appropriate for SR4. As far as gathering materials, yeah, as far as the SR3 rules go, that should be a boon to someone trying to gather raw materials for foci. |
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Mar 30 2006, 03:01 PM
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#9
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
I think that the programming task periods are WAY too long; I think that I'll decrease it to 1 week. I'll do the same for foci.
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Mar 30 2006, 03:49 PM
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#10
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
The crafting time for a focus was 30 days,
A design is needed before you can enchant anything. The design time can be interrupted but the enchanting can not, wanting it to be practical for PCs to do there own enchanting without having to sit out for a year game time because they want a power focus (the unfortunate result of Azathfeld’s attempt, coding time means no hacker can ever program there own code) this is my sujestion Design is a extended test, focus design (force *2) bonding multiplier *1 week Glitch time is wasted Cit. glitch need to start over Enchanting is also an extended test. Enchanting (force *3) one week. Glitch time is wasted Cit. glitch need to start over This permits a force 2 focus to be produced within a month if nothing goes wrong, more powerful than that and your going to need to take extra down time. The design times could be lengthened because design allows you to go on a run half way threw. The actual enchanting can not be left for more than a couple of hours (and then you better not be far) Edward |
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Mar 30 2006, 04:46 PM
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#11
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
Could you use orihalcum to shorten the time? And would this necessitate people making orihalcum themselves?
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Mar 30 2006, 06:21 PM
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#12
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
I guess the 20 point flaw would force you to make your own; I'd much rather steal orihalcum than make it... and for the 20 point, "gather your own stuff" flaw, would stealing it count as gathering it?
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Mar 30 2006, 08:18 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,313 |
Not in my game. In earlier editions, you could use the alchemy specialization of the Enchanting skill to create your own orichalcum, slowly. That's what I meant wehn I suggested a 20-point quality. Being "forced" to steal orichalcum is hardly a hardship for a shadowrunner. |
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Mar 30 2006, 08:28 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 19-January 04 Member No.: 5,992 |
Creating orichalcum slowly? My, but that's an understatement.
If memory serves, orichalcum takes an entire 28 day lunar cycle to create. There are _no_ breaks in the creation process. If you stop for any significant amount of time, I think you end up getting totally screwed and you end up with nothing. But, really, the gathering/enchanting/refining rules were just a little weird, in that the higher-skill alchemists could end up breaking the laws of physics by creating more material than they started with. EDIT: I think gathering tests were something along the lines of 10 days per unit you wished to harvest, with extra successes halving the time each time. |
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Mar 30 2006, 09:10 PM
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#15
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
What if you have spirits helping you? Does having spirits help you count? When do you stop "gathering them yourself?" What if you have an air spirit lift you up to the treetops and stuff? If that's okay, how about sending a spirit of man with "search" and "natural spell: leviate" on a remote service? And how much orihalcum could you create at one time? Another flaw I was thinking of having was to make it so that my character's foci couldn't be used by anyone else. How's that sound?
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Mar 30 2006, 10:04 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 19-January 04 Member No.: 5,992 |
1) Spirits can add dice to the test equal to their force. Well, actually, that's a misnomer. ELEMENTALS could add dice. Spirits didn't last long enough in 3rd, given that you couldn't bind a spirit, I don't think.
2) You have to do the searching. You can't have somebody else do them for you. You could purchase them, sure, and most people did that and bought radical tin and lead, because they were way cheaper, compared to radical gold. 3) AFAIK, you cannot reduce the 28 days to make orichalcum. And said stuff will have your signature plastered all over it, with no way to get it off of there, short of changing your sig with initiation. 4) I don't really consider that a flaw. Most of the time, if a character is making a focus, they're going to use it themselves anyways. If they wanted to make money, they'd just sell component materials. 5) The stuff, if memory serves, was an enchanting test, with the TN being something like 10-12, minus your magic rating. In SR4 terms, I figure the base threshold would be 10-12 minus your magic, with additional successes getting you additional units. The stuff _is_ 88,000 y a pop. |
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Mar 30 2006, 10:53 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,313 |
What with the new unified theory of magic and all, I'd imagine there are some major changes to the way that foci are made. I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about the old system if you're interested in coming up with a new one.
If you're not interested in homebrewing your own new system, this quality isn't really for your game. As there are no available rules in the RAW for focus creation, this necessitates creating your own path. |
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Mar 31 2006, 02:25 AM
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#18
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
AAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH STREET MAGIC!!!! (Say "STREET MAGIC!!!!" the way the dude in the old Mortal Kombat commercials said "MORTAL COMBAAAAAAAT!!!!") Would you say they'll shorten or lengthen the crafting times?
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Apr 1 2006, 10:29 PM
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#19
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
Edward, I'm having a hard time reading the rules you've written for making your own foci... Do they mean that the threshold for designing a force 10 power focus is 160? And what's wrong with having you spirits do "search" when you have to gather the materials yourself?
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Apr 2 2006, 01:27 AM
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#20
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
No.
I shall do an example using the force 10 power focus you suggest (remember that is a big powerful focus and will be hard to make) Before you can begin the enchanting you need a design, this could be purchased but force 10 designs are rare as hens’ teeth so your probably going to need to make it yourself. To do this you make an extended test using the focus design skill (part of the tails mongering group) with a threshold of 20 (force * 2) and a interval of 8 weeks (bonding multiplier weeks) you may stop and start this procedure at will, work half of each day for twice as long, so long as you make up the hours. Once you have your design wether you made it yourself or obtained it threw some other means (witch is specific to the focus type and force as well as the telesma used, eg walking stick and necklace need different designs but the amount of alchemical radicals and oricalcum may change) You make an extended test using the enchanting skill (also in tailsmongering group) with a threshold of 30 (force * 3) and an interval of one week. Your dice pool would be modified buy the nature of the telesma (its object resistance) and any alchemical radicals or oricalcum used. Insolently the tailsmongering group would contain focus design, enchanting, gathering and alchemy. Edward |
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Apr 2 2006, 07:31 AM
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#21
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
HEEHEE!!!! My dude will rock so badly. And do bound spirits increase design dice pool or enchanting? And would the proper detection spells increase his ability to find and gather? And which stat is the group attached to?
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Apr 2 2006, 04:17 PM
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#22
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
I would say that a bound spirit will for one service aid you on any of those tests for one interval, adding its force in dice. The spirit would need to be of the appropriate type for the spell in your tradition. Or have the search power for gathering, not shore what would help with enchanting
And an appropriate detection spell would aid in collecting but that would have to be a very specific spell I would think. I’m not thinking of examples other than detect life form, rare sepses of plant you want to make radicals of. In that case add spell hits. Other spells would provide a bonus at GM discretion. Edward |
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Apr 2 2006, 05:29 PM
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#23
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
You mean mine. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!
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Apr 2 2006, 08:52 PM
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#24
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
Also, I was thinking of having an "obvious spellcasting" flaw. Any time the caster uses magic, any observer gets a +6 to seeing it. It's sort of like a shamanic mask, but it's full-body and really, really obvious. Like, if Shen was casting and the air around him darkened or something. Would Physical Mask cover up something like this?
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Apr 2 2006, 10:25 PM
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#25
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
If physical mask would cover it up, it really wouldn't be much of a "flaw", so I would say no.
Personally, I would be very careful using custom-made Negative Qualities for a GMPC. Other players are likely to be suspicious to begin with (that the GM will favor "his" character), and this won't help. At the very least, you should be sure to post all of your new Negative Qualities up for everyone to potentially pick, before they even make their characters. That's also a good way to test potential Negative Qualities. If everyone picks those Negative Qualities, they probably give too many points or have too few disadvantages. |
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