University libraries and the curious mage, Because they aren't just there for naps! Options

[nezumi]

I have a mage who is trying to get some information on an unusual magical phenomenon. Presumably, researching this would require access to a magical library of some sort or another. As such, this has put me in a bit of a crunch in regards to how best to handle it, so I open it to the sages (and other people) of dumpshock:

1) What rating would a university library have? I'm looking especially at those in the Seattle area. I noticed there are two schools that came up early on in my google search; Seattle University which is a Jesuit institution and has about 4,000 undergrads this year, and Washington University which has about 42,000 students, 39,000 of which are on the Seattle campus alone. Do we have any information about what other schools would be available in the area or what rating their libraries would be? I was assuming 40,000 students would probably result in a rating 12-14 library, more or less, across 3 or more subjects (for a minimum price tag of just under half a million nuyen). Is this way off for a university system?

2) I'm assuming these schools would rent out library time as per SR3. However, wouldn't the library also be free (or at least cheaper) to students? With 40,000 students going through, that means they'll depend primarily upon a basic ID system, so if a PC had a 'student ID' made according to the SIN rules (presumably around level 2 would suffice), would he then have more access to these libraries?

3) The PC isn't looking up spells, so I don't believe anything he's looking for is illegal, it's more like parabiology. HOWEVER, given the nature of magic, should I expect that the magical library is significantly partitioned, with parts under much stricter security controls than others? What sort of security controls would be in place? Will a simple school ID pass? I presume they'd have some sort of magical controls too (warding and the like). Anything ingenious, considering this is still a state government run institution?

4) Gathering information and research is a computer roll, right? Does that apply even in a hard-copy library? I'm thinking magical background, and the rating of the library will just put a cap on how much he can learn about his topic.

Anything else I should be aware or wary of?

Thanks in advance.

[Kanada Ten]

The easy way is to just buy/rent/steal a parabiology VTC or knowsoft.

A university library will be mostly digital, IMO. Second, the public section wouldn't have above a rating 6 magical library, and then it would omit a great deal.

The research section of Universities is where all the money is made, so you can bet on tight security around their rating 12 Librarys. Dangerous or even just valuable material will be guarded by top end security and magical traps such as alarm wards, anchored spells and even magic inherent in the books and scrolls.

The simplest thing to do is submit a request for research or grant. OR you could approach a university staff member. Your GM may make you "aid" some university professor by gathering some rare magical goodie in exchange or similar.

And a rating 2 SIN is nearly useless for everything but buying groceries.

[SL James]

Both UW and Seattle U also have major magical programs in SR (Seattle U has one of the top Master's program in North America), so I think it's fair to assume their magical libraries are pretty good.

[Platinum]

I have not come across too many resources that actually describe what level of library an institution would have. I figure that it would be level 10 but it would also have it available digitally for students.

This has me wondering how much a digital subscription to an online resource would cost. Magiclibrary.com yearly membership for $1000 a year. If you have ever used one of the online book resources you will know that the timeout is like 2 minutes, it only shows one page at a time, is most often just a pain to use, but is cheaper than buying all those books.

Aren't university libraries a public resource? anyone can just walk in and use them, but you need a student id to sign a book out.

What level would a typical public library or high school have?

hmmm ... thinking about this a step further, and using hyzmarca's spell formula from another thread, hermetics would be able to sell their spell formuli over cyberspace, since they are typically more "scientific", would the same apply for a shaman or is shamanic magic fall into more of a student/teacher or totem/follower type of tutilledge?

[SL James]

That depends on the university, and the service. For example, just because you can walk into the local state university's libraries doesn't mean you can access all of their resources - especially their online resources like LexisNexis.

OTOH, the private university I attended wouldn't let non-university people in unless they were a) escorted by student/staff/faculty, or b) affiliated with a consortium university.

[nezumi]

Yeah, SL James is more or less what I was thinking. My school had a library or two you could just walk in (since they didn't check IDs), but you couldn't use the computers or check anything out without said ID. They also had some libraries you needed an ID to access. I'm not aware of any libraries in the school which were off-limits to students or charged money, but presumably they would charge money to visitors.

I also sort of agree with Kanada Ten in that that information is very valuable, but at the same time, the canon rules just say the cost is $100*rating per hour or something like. And given the fact that a single rating 12 library is a measly $100k, I can't imagine security is THAT high (why would you pay $100k annually for physical and magical security for a $400k library?)

I suppose I'm simply hitting the point where what makes sense logically, that ANY magical library is valuable, dangerous and likely to be protected (since you can use it to create illegal spells, to generate income, etc.) However said libraries are relatively cheap to own and apparently have no limitations on renting. So given all this, how hard is it REALLY to get access to these libraries?

[emo samurai]

My school's library's huge, but the people there don't secure it at all. You probably couldn't borrow books if you weren't a student, but the students themselves do the thing where you raise the books over the scanners. I've forgotten to check out my books, like, 4 times, and they don't make a big deal of it. You could easily just have two people walk through the scanners at the same time with un-checked-out books, one with the decoy book that he'll sheepishly check out, and the other with the book you want. This idea of a university library even having guards to begin with is fucking weird.

[SL James]

[emo samurai]

Couldn't you have the decker hack you an account? And I heard that access to Mitsuhama's journals costs, like, :nuyen: 50 a month. That's, like, millionth-degree murder.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Ummmmmm... about the magic analogy...

I'm willing to bet that libraries also have books on gunsmithing and chemical theory. You can use those to manufacture your own firearms (if you have a machine shop) or bombs (if you have a chem-lab.)

Not much different from magic, is it, except that only a mage can do the manufacturing. Yet the books on guns and chemistry aren't kept under lock and key and armed guard.

[SL James]

[nezumi]

Emo - but I suspect your library doesn't generally make money from their collection.

My school has one of the largest East Asia collections in the US. I seem to recollect (and I could be wrong) that the room was guarded by key-card access, tied into our student IDs. Either way, it was in a separate part of the building, apart from the regular stacks. It was a neat place to hang out, and I understand that at least a few serious researchers from outside of the system have relied upon that library for their work. So I can believe they charged for that service. I have no idea if that's really the case, or how much they charged. There were no armed guards though, just normal door locks. There's another, little library with some very, very old books that has locked doors and a single, unarmed librarian guarding the door (students can go in, but can't read or touch the books).

Regardless, canon does tell us one thing. $100*Rating per hour. For an 'average' library, that means you're paying around $1,000 for a single *HOUR* of use. I can't imagine there are a lot of brick and mortar buildings that make money through charging people $1,000 per hour. Clearly they'd be there for another reason, to support an initiatory group, a research corp, a university, etc. and the charge is to make money on top of whatever the library's genuine use was.

As for the magic analogy... I guess the magic books aren't that dangerous on their own in comparison... But they still do make money. At minimum, they make money off of the tiny percentage of the 1% of the population who can do magic, interested in advanced research, has disposable income and isn't part of an organization that has its own library.

Hrrmm... This charging for library access is sounding sillier and sillier...

[ShadowDragon8685]

Especially since the prices given in the sourcebooks are based 100% upon "game balance", and 0% upon realistic concerns.

And let's not get into the argument. Realistic is a valid alternative to "Vermisilitude" in this situation, and not as difficult to spell.

[emo samurai]

[PBTHHHHT]

They'd probably just put a lot of the info on the matrix on secure databases and charge for searches/printing/etc... The search databases like LexisNexis and Westlaw charge a lot of money for private users, in fact they offer it for free for law students just so they can get them hooked on the service before they go out in the private sector. I've heard of stories where associates and interns inadvertently doing a bit too much searching (too much and too broad to begin with) and ended up costing the firms thousands of dollars from it.

I see less in the whole brick and mortar libraries, other than acting as an archive/storage for the actual document. Unless the writers decided not to allow the materials to be scanned and stored on the matrix and such.

[emo samurai]

My god... how much money does Lexis Nexis make?

[SL James]

One of their pricing structures is $6/min...

[emo samurai]

Oh my god...

[Pendaric]

Myhumble take is that you can mix and match with the cannon pricing structure and being a signed member of a online resource, paying for a package that then reduces the cost.
The mage in question has his own library to reference from so he can know what and therefore where to search. So it is more a question of how much cred you like to seperate from the group ;)

[Voran]

I wonder how much all the people having sex in secret corners of the libraries would affect its rating. Woops. Realized the mage wasn't intending to do any rituals, just old fashioned research. Nevermind :)

[PBTHHHHT]

[nezumi]

[Lindt]

Also keep in mind that spells over a certen force are illegal, and require premits.
Im sure you could find force 1 and 2 spells in your normal public library, anywhere between 1 and 4 in a GOOD college library. IIRC anything over 3 needs a permit to know. So I highly dout your going to find force 10 spells in a public, or college library. Though thats not to say that a good pirvate collection wont have a few 5s floating around.

[hyzmarca]

[Crusher Bob]

Oh yes, we'll get around to stealing the books from the library right after we finish the 10K :nuyen: panty raid the rich frat boys paid our favorite band of slope headed killers to do.