Force of Personality., Rules? |
Force of Personality., Rules? |
Mar 30 2006, 02:04 PM
Post
#1
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 18-March 02 From: Plymouth UK. Member No.: 2,408 |
Ok I may have missed it but, does the SR4 rulebook contain the rules for fighting spirits with the force of your personality to avoid, their immunity?
I know the rules from 3rd ed, and it is mentioned in 4th. But I can't find any official new rules for them. Thanks for your book scouring in advance. |
|
|
Mar 30 2006, 02:49 PM
Post
#2
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 21-October 04 Member No.: 6,778 |
I can't either.
But I went over the rules for engaging spirits with "mundane" weaponry and I realized that spirits are a lot more vulnerable now. Once you find a weapon big enough to penetrate their hardened "spirit armor", they can be significantly damaged. Remember: Everyone now has to roll a target number of 5 or more in order to take less damage from a hit. To further illustrate my point, imagine a Force 5 spirit: You need to have a weapon with a Damage Value of at least 10 or better to penetrate it or else it does no damage at all. And that's easy enough: A good toss of high-explosive grenade (10P damage -2AP) or even a shot from a Ruger Super Warhawk loaded with High Ex Explosive (8P damage -4AP, which reduces the spirit's armor to 6) ought to do the trick. |
|
|
Mar 30 2006, 03:50 PM
Post
#3
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
I didn’t think AP would apply, its not armour, its immunity to normal weapons.
Edward |
|
|
Mar 30 2006, 04:25 PM
Post
#4
|
|||||||
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Actually the weapon's base damage doesn't need to be a 10. The attack is harmless only if (base damage) + (net hits) is equal to or less than 10.
The more accurate your shots are the higher the modified DV, and the more likely you are to punch through those same protections.... so you could theoretically damage a spirit with even a BB gun if you were skilled and/or lucky enough. So while I can see the conceptual problems with APDS punching through spiritual protections, the literal wording suggests that it should work. I suppose one could chalk it up to a subtle "force of personality" attack, where the shooter is convinced that shooting something in the eye with APDS hurts it more and therefore it becomes mystically true. In any event, that's the RAW. |
||||||
|
|||||||
Mar 30 2006, 05:31 PM
Post
#5
|
|||
Target Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 21-October 04 Member No.: 6,778 |
Yes, but "immunity to normal weapons" is basically defined as "hardened armor" (see Azralon's quotes from the rulebook above). |
||
|
|||
Mar 30 2006, 05:37 PM
Post
#6
|
|||
Target Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 21-October 04 Member No.: 6,778 |
I know. When I actually typed that out, I was in a hurry since I had to get to class. Also it was for the sake of simplicity. Thanks for setting the record straight, though. :rotate: I personally don't have a problem with spirits being more vulnerable these days. If I'm recalling the rules for spirits from previous editions correctly, the ones with even a decent Force rating were basically unkillable against anything short of an assault cannon. That means that you always needed a mage or adept in your crew to deal with spirits. This caused me two problems as a GM: When the players had a conjurer and their opponents didn't have much in the way of magical protection, or when the NPCs had a conjurer and the Shadowrunners didn't have any mages. Conflicts became incredibly one-sided with almost no hope of the tables being turned. This new change balances things out, in my humble opinion. :cyber: |
||
|
|||
Mar 30 2006, 06:09 PM
Post
#7
|
|||
Target Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 31-January 06 Member No.: 8,215 |
The awakened world, p. 184
Is this the one we're looking for? Seems to me that if you engage it in astral combat, you still use your Cha to bypass their hardened armor |
||
|
|||
Mar 30 2006, 06:21 PM
Post
#8
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Codethulhu (great name BTW), NightHaunter is apparently talking about a mundane's capacity to damage a spirit through its Immunity to Normal Weapons. In previous editions, a mundane could roll Charisma (without Combat Pool) to replace his/her melee skill when attacking a spirit.
With regards to engaging a spirit in astral combat: If you can legitimately enter astral combat, you have to be astrally active. If you're astrally active then you ignore the spirit's Immunity to Normal Weapons because you are in fact not using a "normal" weapon. :) |
|
|
Mar 30 2006, 11:27 PM
Post
#9
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
just get yourself a troll archer and spirits will never be a problem again.
forget about those silly toys you call "assault cannons" :P |
|
|
Mar 31 2006, 11:20 AM
Post
#10
|
|||
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 18-March 02 From: Plymouth UK. Member No.: 2,408 |
Thanks for clariflying my point. I'm only asking because it came up in my last session. However the ork player thought about it for a second and decided he'ed be better off shooting it. I'm assuming it has been "left out" of the 4th Ed rules at the moment then. I'm looking at rolling willpower and charisma for the attack, with a base damge of zero (i.e. net successes only!). |
||
|
|||
Mar 31 2006, 02:30 PM
Post
#11
|
|
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
I don't have the rules right in front of me, but I recently did up the cheat sheet for astral combat, so I might actually have this right.
If you are astrally projecting, it's just like melee combat, only you use your astral Agilty (i.e. Logic) and your Astral Combat to make the attack. Your damage is based on your astral Strength (i.e. Charisma). If you are astrally perceiving or dual-natured, you use your normal melee skill plus your Willpower. Again, the damage is based on your Charisma. This Charisma-based damage, I imagine, would be the force-of-personality attack. If you are not in astral space even a little bit, you're stuck attacking the spirit's "meat" body and its immunities. |
|
|
Mar 31 2006, 03:16 PM
Post
#12
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 18-March 02 From: Plymouth UK. Member No.: 2,408 |
That was the call I made 2 sundays ago for simplicity.
But I was just curious as to whether I missed something or whether there were some house rules floating around. |
|
|
Mar 31 2006, 06:41 PM
Post
#13
|
|||
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Are you telling me there is no more grounding either? :silly: |
||
|
|||
Mar 31 2006, 07:53 PM
Post
#14
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
There is no explicit mention of grounding in SR4. Personally I'd prefer if it were left out completely.
However, one could seem to reasonably put together a case for its continued existence. Something along the lines of: * Spells can affect only those targets on the same plane as the caster. * Dual entities are considered to be on both planes at once. * Physical spells cannot affect purely astral targets. So if you were astral and cast Fireball on a dual target, your target could be affected (it's a Physical spell affecting a physically-active target and the target is astrally active at the same time you are). At this point, things get vague. Fireball creates real physical flame; so its spread would logically engulf the area of the physical world around the dual target, right? That's the "grounding" effect that we all know and love/hate? However, the RAW says that you can't affect a target that isn't on the same plane as you are. This seems to say that even though you've created physical flame, the flame won't affect anything in its radius that isn't also dual. The mundanes in the fireball effect will just stand around unharmed in the middle of this non-burning real fire, apparently? So, yeah, there's some continued debate over the existence of grounding. |
|
|
Mar 31 2006, 08:06 PM
Post
#15
|
|||
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
I thought that when casting on the astral plane at an astral target, you had to use a mana spell (not a physical one)? As a dual entity, it's on both planes at once, but you can only target the astral portion if your only in astral (i.e. projecting). |
||
|
|||
Mar 31 2006, 08:12 PM
Post
#16
|
|||||||
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
That could be a good point; lemme go get my book out for a re-read. Okay, it says:
Then there's the bit under the Astral Space section that mentions a dual being is considered to be active on both planes. So by extension a pure-astral caster can put the whammy on a dual target.
That's what we've got on that. |
||||||
|
|||||||
Mar 31 2006, 08:45 PM
Post
#17
|
|||||||||
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
The way I read this, dual natured entities (i.e. manifest spirits) may be present on both planes, but are only targets (from the perspective of the mage) on the plane that they share with the caster. So, if I'm a projecting mage (i.e. astral only) then the spirit is only a valid target on the astral plane, even though it exists on both planes. Since it's an astral-only target, I should only be able to effect it with mana spells. If on the other hand, I was there physically, and only astrally percieving for targeting purposes, then I could target it with either mana or physical spells. Would you agree? [edit]By extension, I'd also say that an astral (un-manifested) spirit could not perform any of its physical powers (like engulf) on a mage that was astrally percieving (and therefore dual natured) without mainfesting itself. |
||||||||
|
|||||||||
Mar 31 2006, 08:50 PM
Post
#18
|
|||||
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Sorry if my comment was misleading. It was my attempt at being a smart-ass. SR3 removed grounding (SR1-2 mechanic) but was hard to spot since SR3 made no mention it had been removed in the new version. Much like SR4, it is what it is. If it's not mentioned or implied in some way, it doesn't exist. I've learned to read new versions as "stand alone" instead of comparing old to new. There is no grounding. :wobble: |
||||
|
|||||
Mar 31 2006, 08:54 PM
Post
#19
|
|||
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Yay! |
||
|
|||
Mar 31 2006, 08:58 PM
Post
#20
|
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
ouch, grounding. while a fun concept, it was not worth the effort most of the time (alltho it was a very effective way of limiting foci use)...
hmm, funny thing. i read over the text on spirit combat. and there is some fluff about "force of personality", but no real rules for it... |
|
|
Mar 31 2006, 09:35 PM
Post
#21
|
|||
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
the big impact of grounding in my SR2 games was the mage exploding (and taking out the whole team) whenever he tried to astrally percieve. :eek: |
||
|
|||
Mar 31 2006, 11:42 PM
Post
#22
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 588 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,316 |
I may explode, but only my teammates die.
It's noce having a body of 11 |
|
|
Apr 1 2006, 07:20 AM
Post
#23
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
One of the loopholes in grounding (which was even mentioned in one of the magic books!) was that a mage could summon a very low-force spirit, go astral, zip over to where the targets were, have the spirit manifest, then use grounding to blast a spell through the spirit to affect the targets. Sure, you just blew up your spirit, but you also blasted everyone else - grounding made mundanes utterly defenseless against that tactic.
|
|
|
Apr 1 2006, 12:23 PM
Post
#24
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 18-March 02 From: Plymouth UK. Member No.: 2,408 |
Out of curiosity.
I am right in assuming that an astrally projecting magic user can manifest to affect things in the physical world, aren't I. I will probably allow it any way, but it would be nice if it was cannon. |
|
|
Apr 1 2006, 03:05 PM
Post
#25
|
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
they can manifest yes, but manifesting isnt the same as the materializing that a spirit can do.
when a astraly projecting magican manifests, only living beings can see and hear him. he is basicly a kind of ghost, with not ability to affect the physical world in any way... i know the diffrence the hard way, i belived they where one and the same at one time... |
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 28th March 2024 - 02:14 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.