 I know Kung Fu...., Are skills easier in this game? |
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 Apr 20 2006, 06:18 AM
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#101
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650  |
what about if ya are skilled taking skills to the extreme, Alf CYber Adept pistolier agi 8(12) Pistols (semi automatic) 7(9) 3 levels of IA pistols smartgun link in contact lenses with optimag 3 I have 6 seconds before the bad guys reach their citymaster I am using an ares viper slivergun with GV 3, I want the car dead before they can get in and start it (one combat turn to get in, one to start it) I have 2 initiave passes per turn My base dice pool is 12+9+3+2= 26 dice I choose the called shot for vulnerable spot rule and thus lose 20 dice of dice pool (you must bypass ALL the armor) leaving me a dice pool of 6 my first action is to take aim and lose penalties for range then I fire a burst into the van 6 dice should be about 2 hits stationary van = no dodge test narrow bust = damage + 2 12 damage resisted by 16 dice = 6-7 boxes next pass I repeat my burst for a total ov 13 boxes, which is as many as the citymaster has There, a character, possible as a starting char, but cheesy as anything less than a 50 karma char. Killed a citymaster with a pistol and without use of edge Now tell me luck shouldn't be able to do what skill can do |
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Apr 20 2006, 06:30 AM
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#102
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I also would not allow that. We don't use armor bypassing shots in our games because of the incredibly silly situations that it can cause. That's not a "GM says no" it's a "group agrees." We did the same in SR3. Bypassing armor is a problem with or without edge. The Citymaster is just one of a bunch of examples that have come up in this thread and the other two (or more?) threads where Cain continually tries to assert that the entire fixed TN system doesn't work because GM logic prevents low agility PCs from tying shoelaces.
Luck most definitely should eb able to do what skill can. And Skill + Luck should be able to do even more. That doesn't make the impossible possible. Are there problems with the longshot rules? Yes, if you have a group like Cain's that wants to try and break the system while ignoring common sense. And no, if you have a group that like mine that doesn't try that sort of crap. :) |
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Apr 20 2006, 06:33 AM
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#103
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
remind me not to play in any star wars games you GM
"Sorry Luke, you aren't allowed to bypass the Death Star's armor by going for a weak spot, as that would be silly." |
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Apr 20 2006, 09:25 AM
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#104
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
If you want strict realism, then you definitely need to give SR4 a pass. All games involve characters doing things that would not be possible for normal people-- otherwise, what's the point? If you happen to like strict realism, that's fine, but then I think you'd have more fun doing your annual taxes.
First you advocate for realism, then you say this? The problem with the Escape Certain Death clause is that it allows a character to survive a direct THOR shot. Anything that would kill the character mysteriously falls short-- that's not just the letter of the rules, that's the spirit of them. Unfortunately, that is not only a broken mechanic, but one that destroys suspension of disbelief; and if you as a GM decide to not allow it, you've definitely set up an adversarial role in your game.
Wrong. If game-breaking impossible situations occur on a regular basis due to the rules, and it could be prevented by a sane rule set, then it's not the player's problem at all.
First of all, quit insulting my gaming friends. For one thing, we prefer to prevent problems in the first place, instead of waiting for them to happen, and then having a "realistic" GM throw a hissy-fit when the "impossible" happens. As a result, we prefer to have a stable ruleset where we don't have to worry about it. I'd hate to see the sort of crap your group does pull; when players have to tread so delicately around their Gm, I really have to wonder. Besides which, this is about SR4, not our private gaming groups. Just because you're deluding yourself into thinking your players will never do this, that doesn't mean it's not an issue for all Shadowrun players to be aware of. You think it's not a problem because it won't come up for you? Let me make it clear: this is not about you. This is about Shadowrun, and how to make it a better game, more enjoyable for everyone. Flawed rules are a serious problem, no matter how many blindfolds you care to wear. The Edge rules not only allow for some truly hideous abuses, they're deliberately written to encourage them. This is a flaw in the core mechanics of the game. The only way to fix this is to alter the core mechanics of the game in a radical way-- no matter what you do, you've fundamentally shifted the entire base of the system. In short, to fix the problem, you almost need to chuck everything and start from scratch. I don't know about you, but I don't want to be spending forty bucks on a game I'll never play-- and if I'm redoing everything, then I'm not playing it.
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Oh, man, I've got to sig that one. :love: |
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Apr 20 2006, 09:48 AM
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#105
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 10-April 06 Member No.: 8,448 |
James, you should understand about the very abstract rule mechanisms of shadowrun. People do not actually have boxes that fill up when they get hurt, or have you ever heard someone crying "Oh no, it appears I suffer a -1 penalty to my dice pools, now, that you broke my nose!"? Well, sorry for that... :wobble: The creators of shadowrun struggled hart to make the game as realistic as possible, but you have to ignore your "common sense" sometimes when playing shadowrun. |
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Apr 20 2006, 09:55 AM
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#106
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
Thanks for the ego stroke |
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Apr 20 2006, 02:06 PM
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#107
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 271 Joined: 18-April 06 Member No.: 8,481 |
Umm... You do realize that you can't called shot to bypass armor on targets without weak spots, right? You can't, for instance, bypass the armor of someone with full body armor, since the armor covers their whole body. That rule is for shooting someone in the head when they're not wearing a helmet, or other obvious weak points. You can't bypass the armor rating of a structural wall by shooting its weak point- assuming it has one, you have no idea where it is. Ares Citymasters do not have unarmored spots where you can just shoot through them and blow them up, the rules do not allow for it, only GM stupidity allows for it. Maybe, maybe the exhaust pipe would be a vulnerable spot, but then again if they're not morons Ares designed it with a truck-like vertical exhaust pipe which would mean you need to be hovering directly above the vehicle to shoot through it. |
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Apr 20 2006, 02:16 PM
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#108
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
You can bypass a vehicle's armor by getting inside of it. All Luke did was lift the hood and fire at it that way. Getting up to the Citymaster and lifting its hood might be a problem, but nothing in life is free. :) |
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Apr 20 2006, 02:26 PM
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#109
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Again, reaslitic within the game world. And again, intentional obtuseness only harms your position.
The two are not incompatible. If someone gets hit by a THOR shot, no amount of edge will save them. But as I said the last time you tried that tact, if you're hitting your players with THOR shots there's a much bigger problem in your game than the edge rules.
Game breaking situations don't happen because of the edge rules, they happen because people try to abuse them.
Who's treading carefully? It's a partnership. They don't bother trying impossible crap and I don't bother telling them it isn't possible.
Ummm... Nice rant, but not really applicable. I'm not saying it's not a problem because I use a realistic approach to the game, I'm saying it's not a problem because any GM can, and probably should, use a realistic approach to the game if they want to avoid longshot test craziness.
Which designer told you that? :)
You keep saying that, but failing to prove it. Simply having dice pool penalties carry over into the edge dice also removes the problem and doesn't require changing the TN system. You don't like it because it makes some actions impossible, but that's your opinion about how a game should work. Others differ.
Didn't you already spend 40 bucks on a game you'll never play? *points and laughs*
I understand that, and have actually said it before. There's no such thing as "common sense" when it comes to magic, for example. But just because you do it sometimes doesn't mean you should rewrite the system because you've elected to throw common sense out the window.
I wondered aboutt hat, but don't have an SR4 book handy to look it up. Does it say that in the bypassing armor rules? |
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Apr 20 2006, 03:11 PM
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#110
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Why wouldn't a citymaster have weak spots? Okay, I understand if you don't want any part of it to have zero armor, but it should definitely have weaker spots. The only thing that should have a completely consistent armor rating all over is, um, a chunk of....armor?
I agree that the bypass armor rule was for <100% coverage armor, but maybe there should be a corrolary rule for 100% coverage armor such as full security armor and citymasters, where you can bypass 1/2 of the armor by going for a weaker spot. Or something. I don't know. Thoughts? |
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Apr 20 2006, 03:22 PM
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#111
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
so those guys in LA with the full body armor never died? Funny I had a recording of the radio logs for that Turns out they were taken down by a cop who decided to ignore training and try to work out 'weak spots' o the target's FULL BODY armor BTW the face plates weren't as strong as the chest stuff
or the grill or the headlights or the spot where the headlights meet the superstrucsure or the bit where the old hatches buckle slightly and never close properly after that (real story behind tthe last one, some nutter in Perth West OZ stole a Police APC. the TRG (Aussie SWAT) shot a tear gas grenade into the weak point where the hatch couldn't close properly oh and James... Luke never opened the hood, He just got up close to get a shot directly into a hole in the Grill. |
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Apr 20 2006, 03:27 PM
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#112
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
So there wasn't a gigantic infrastructure that he flew into? We must have seen a different movie.
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Apr 20 2006, 03:30 PM
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#113
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
open trench in 'A New Hope'
It was in 'Return of the Jedi' that they flew INTO the death star, and that was Lando because in the next death star, they went out of their way to plug the hole Luke shot |
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Apr 20 2006, 03:34 PM
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#114
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Ah, different situations. Luke didn't ignore three (or 3,000) inches of steel by being lucky in that situation, he found a hole. That's a bit of a difference from shooting someone who is sitting inside a giant steel box. The box he shot at had holes in it.
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Apr 20 2006, 03:35 PM
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#115
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
So do citymasters.
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Apr 20 2006, 03:36 PM
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#116
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
There are no holes in a city master's armor that will allow you to shoot someone sitting in the back seat without having to go through the armor.
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Apr 20 2006, 03:39 PM
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#117
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
Not shooting the guy in the back seat,
shooting through one of the holes to sever theprimary fuel line and cause the vehivcle to be non functional |
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Apr 20 2006, 03:45 PM
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#118
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
That's what happens when examples change in mid game. In my game, you shoot through the hole to sever the primary fuel line by bypassing it's armor with a good shot, taken by rolling your dice. That isn't how everyone plays it though, and that's cool.
I never said everyone has the same ideas of what is possible and what isn't possible. :) totally divergent though, as the discussion is about skills, not bypassing armor. Ever since armro bypassing ebcame possible some people have liked it and others have hated it. It's just one of the many things that are impossible that the GM might find himself having to say to say "no, I'm sorry, luck can't do that." |
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Apr 20 2006, 04:32 PM
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#119
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Well, in any game system that allows skill to increase damage you might run into some conceptual problems eventually.
If Bob just did 50 HPs of disintegration damage to that foobar elemental, one-shotting it into oblivion, then how can Steve possibly do 200 HPs of damage to it? Did he somehow kill it more or something? Or, another example: In SR3, you could make up a "Bullseye adept" and potentially turn a marshmellow into a lethal weapon. Just stage it up enough -- using the optional overdamage rules, of course -- and that little puff of foamy sugar could take down a troll cyberzombie. How? I don't know. I do know that we were recently shown how to cinematically kill a little old lady with a complimentary airplane peanut. It took a little imagination on the part of the Daredevil screenwriters, but it was plausible enough for a tabletop game. SR4 lets you potentially stage up any damage value into infinity. Obviously, destroying a building with a tazer round is extremely unlikely, but per the RAW it's possible. So it's up to the GM to contrive a method that the tazer round could lead to a chain reaction of destruction, or just outright decide it can't be done. Me, I always had trouble reconciling how some little 4-foot-tall hobbit knockoff had the ability to kill a hundred-foot dragon with a little 6-inch pointy stick. But hey, that's what the D&D rules wanted to happen, so it did. |
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Apr 20 2006, 04:34 PM
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#120
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
not a taser round, buildingignores stun damage
EXEX round,Now we're cooking with gas |
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Apr 20 2006, 04:39 PM
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#121
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
But, Krem! I shot it in the sprinkler system sensor, creating a short-circuit that lead to disruptive feedback across the security grid that caused every electrical junction box in the building to spontaneously ignite. The fire will consume the entire building shortly since the sprinklers are offline and the security guys can't even call for help. |
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Apr 20 2006, 04:45 PM
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#122
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Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 15-April 06 From: Louisville, Kentucky Member No.: 8,467 |
You can't put a gas vent on a Viper. |
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Apr 20 2006, 04:54 PM
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#123
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
'Great shot kid, That was one in a million!' but on a more serious note that is an example of when the rules flat out state that something is impossible even with edge even with longshot The new system makes the incredibly difficult, or virtually impossible, a lot easier the impossible is still just that No GM ruling required there oh and KI, in 4th the Viper's Integral suppressor does not use up the barrel mount, and the rule are inconclusive as to whether a burst firing pistol can have a gas vent |
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Apr 20 2006, 05:15 PM
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#124
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Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 15-April 06 From: Louisville, Kentucky Member No.: 8,467 |
inconclusive? Heh, ok. In the same way that the rules don't say I can't put a gas vent on a dwarf so it must be legal.
But that's another thread. |
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Apr 20 2006, 05:17 PM
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#125
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
inconclusive in that they are a barrel mount, but pistols are not on the list of things a gas mount is mentioned for
even though another pistol starts with one |
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