 Melee question, I don't understand melee under SR4 |
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 Apr 6 2006, 02:32 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 19-May 03 Member No.: 4,604  |
Hi,
I just bought the SR4 book. I've been playing SR since 1st ed. I'm a bit confused on the Melee section. The melee action seems to be 1. attacker strikes rolling his dice pool. Defender defends with his dice pool. 2. if attacker equals or exceed defender then it hits 3. if defender exceed attacker then the attack is stopped My question is, when is the defender ever become an attacker? |
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Apr 6 2006, 02:33 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 617 Joined: 28-May 03 From: Orlando Member No.: 4,644 |
On his Combat Phase in the Intiative ladder. Then he takes the attacker stance.
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Apr 6 2006, 02:35 PM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 19-May 03 Member No.: 4,604 |
So, the text on not having a you-go, I-go is false?
That's what it looks like to me... |
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Apr 6 2006, 02:43 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 565 Joined: 7-January 04 Member No.: 5,965 |
on your action, you may spend a complex action to make a melee attack. you roll agility+skill vs the defenders reaction+skill. if you score more net hits, then you roll your damage vs their soak. if you do not score more net hits, then nothing happens.
when the defender gets an action, he may make a melee attack if he chooses to. or he can fire his gun (at a penalty). or he can run away. so if ubermelee guy is standing next to 3 gangers, and attacks one with his action in teh first pass, he rolls to hit. theres a freinds in melee modifier. then the three gangers get to act- two make a melee attack, and the third fires two shots with his gun. then the ubermelee guy gets his second pass action. melee attack. gangers do nothing as they only had the one pass. on the third pass he attacks again, and teh gangers do nothing. on the 4th pass he attacks again, the gangers do nothing. the next round, he attacks again. the gangers, if any are left standing, can run for their lives now on the first pass. |
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 Apr 6 2006, 03:06 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 18-March 02 From: Plymouth UK. Member No.: 2,408 |
Now having extra init passes helps.
Before if you had loads of init. And melee'd a superior opponent 2-3 times he could hit you in all of them, without init enhancers. Now he can't, because you are moving faster. A big improvement in my opinion. However now there is nothing stopping you from shooting at point black range the guy that just missed with his katana. (except the -2 dice penalty). Hope this has helped. |
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Apr 6 2006, 03:25 PM
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#6
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
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Apr 6 2006, 03:53 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 111 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,207 |
That text on the "taking turns" thing is from a roleplaying perspective. While mechanically, you do make your roll then the enemy makes their roll on their turn, when describing the action both characters are supposed to be making a number of minor attacks that get blocked or dodged. The rolls simply represent the net outcome of the melee for that turn. |
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Apr 6 2006, 07:24 PM
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#8
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Much like every system where you take turns rolling to simulate constant jabs and stabs.
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Apr 6 2006, 07:29 PM
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#9
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Roleplaying and strategy games typically do their best to represent simultaneous combat, but in practice it's much easier for everyone around the table to "take their turn."
So, like Arkary said, it's all turn-based only from a purely mechanical standpoint. From a roleplaying point of view a lot of stuff is going on at once. That inset text is there just to remind you that the game mechanics are abstractions and shouldn't be taken as literal actions in their out-of-game sequence. |
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Apr 6 2006, 07:45 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 314 Joined: 25-February 06 Member No.: 8,307 |
I've only skimmed the melee rules...
Is there anything about a counterstrike? If the defender scores more net successes, do they get to damage the attacker? Personally, I liked it that way, as it seemed more like "actual" close combat. If someone with lower skill/ability attacks, then the more skilled defender should be able to turn that around, taking advantage of the opportunity to strike at an opening... |
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Apr 6 2006, 07:54 PM
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#11
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
As SR4 is written, you're pitting Agility+Skill vs. Reaction+Skill, so onset of melee combat SR4 assumes you are purely defending and not counter-attacking. I'd allow my players to opt to counter-attack by allowing the them to roll Agility+Skill inplace of Reaction+Skill. However, I'm on the fence about making it function like "Full Defense" where you'd have to give up your next Complex Action. Anyone else do this? |
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Apr 6 2006, 08:07 PM
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#12
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
There is no "free counterattack" anymore. SR4 gave that up, likely because someone with sufficient sword skill and one initative pass could kill a dozen guys in three seconds and THEN use his Complex Action to drink a cup of coffee.
Cool? Maybe. Realistic or game-balanced? Not so much. |
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Apr 6 2006, 08:16 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
Always hated that. Actually, if the defender has a higher skill, he still stands a chance against the lower skilled attacker, even if the attacker has more initiative phases. |
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Apr 6 2006, 08:24 PM
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#14
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
Sounds like a perfectly good idea. As long as you can only attack once per action no matter what. It's an extra option in melee combat that's satisfying yet requires no hassle. |
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Apr 6 2006, 08:27 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
I might allow a counterattack to happen like Interception. Spend a free action to make a melee attack against someone who just missed you with a melee attack.
But attacking a higher skilled opponent should not make him "faster". |
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Apr 6 2006, 08:31 PM
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#16
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
How about allowing a counter attack when the opponent rolls a glitch?
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Apr 6 2006, 08:34 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 314 Joined: 25-February 06 Member No.: 8,307 |
For a glitch, I was planning on reducing the dice for his next action... stumbled, lost ground, etc.
Maybe on a critical glitch the defender's successes turn to damage? |
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Apr 6 2006, 08:35 PM
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#18
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
I'm sure there will be a lot of tasty new melee options when the martial art style rules come out for the new edition.
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Apr 6 2006, 08:37 PM
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#19
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Doesn't make him faster although it might seem so from a mechanics stand point. In SR4, if someone is throwing punches, kicks, whatever at you have to wait for an opening and then attack. Although they specifically mention melee combat is series of jab, fients, punches and kicks, they are not really treating as such. Realistically, you make your own openings. The, "I punch, You punch" philosophy only works if both fighters are thinking that and not that well if they are. You should take advantage of sloppy skill and seize opportunities when they happen. I play with a group of guys that have studied a lot about fighting, so for us, it makes pefect sence to have the ability to counterattack, especially against someone with a weaker skill. Alternatively, you could allow this type of counterattack if the Attacker rolls a critical glitch and the defender scored more succeses on his Reaction+Skill roll. |
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Apr 6 2006, 08:41 PM
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#20
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
I really like my own suggestion, here. Not only critical glitch, but every glitch, leaves you open for counter attacks. Critical glitch may give you a penalty as well. I think it's now a house rule of mine even.
The fact that melee combat is a complex action—combined with how it's always resisted by attribute+skill—makes melee combat that much slower and less deadly than ranged combat (as admitedly it should be), it doesn't really hurt to give combatants a few more chances to hurt eachother. The glitch mechanic is perfect for this. |
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Apr 6 2006, 08:49 PM
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#21
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Before you say "less dealy" look at the possible damage ratings of melee compared to ranged (assuming heavy pistols vs. monowhips or high strength).
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Apr 6 2006, 09:04 PM
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#22
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
I, for one, really like that. You glitch, (one) opponent gets a free attack. You can still defend against it, but it's still a Bad Thing™ for the one that got the glitch. |
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Apr 6 2006, 09:08 PM
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#23
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
This was how the original Kyoto Kid managed to survive with only 2 dice of initiative. Basically she usually had the upper hand on most of her attackers skill wise - particularly after bonding her force 3 weapon focus added to her +4 combat skill with Edged Weapons that in turn was specialised in Katana to rating 8 (which equated to 15 dice before applying combat pool). On top of this, she had Combat Sense 2 which added even more dice to her CP (which I believe was 13) Usually she would only need to apply a couple of dice from the pool to augment her counterstrike. Took out a lot of bad guys this way. With the Counterstrike rule a thing of the past, KK 4.1 (the SR4 version) now has Improved Initiative 2 for 3 passes. |
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Apr 7 2006, 08:45 AM
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#24
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
No need to be unspecific. You glitch, the opponent gets a free attack. Even though you can fight more than one opponent you can this far only attack one at a time, so you can only glitch against one at a time. |
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Apr 7 2006, 03:00 PM
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#25
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,416 Joined: 4-March 06 From: Albuquerque Member No.: 8,334 |
In any given melee, you're only going to have a chance to toss out so many "free" hits like this. Any thoughts on what to limit this to?
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