 The samurai as a tragic/pathetic figure, RP ideas from bullshido.net |
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 Apr 10 2006, 10:38 PM
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#1
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383  |
I was recently reading a thread on bullshido.net where someone came and whined how it's not honorable to call bullshit on peoples' arts. The resulting thread was really long and a few people dissected Bushido from a historical perspective. This is my favorite quote from the thread and I think that it could be used as an interesting role playing perspective for the next time you play an honorable samurai type character.
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread...ad.php?p=926911 You see, in 1980s American fiction there's typically been a big deal about samurai codes making you a better warrior and enabling you to punk whiney drunk high American midwestern auto workers. That's all well and good and it's extremely suitable for a typical 1980s style SR campaign. But for when that cliche gets sort of old you can use the above post to kind of put a negative or pathetic spin on that. You have a character who is a formidable opponent and who uses a combination of skill and strategy to almost systematically slaughter his enemies. He has a bushido code but rather than being something that really empowers him in any way it's really just a psychological device that lets him cope with the stress of killing so many people. Every now and then your character can have mini nervous breakdowns over the stress but bounce back after a while talking about his "warrior code". I think that you could really effectively portray a really tortured soul barely making it through ups and downs. The best part, of course, would be that even though the character is mentally suffering he is still the consumate tactician/killer when it comes to actual conflict which is more interesting IMO than someone who is just a whiney victim through and through. |
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Apr 10 2006, 11:15 PM
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#2
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Play Legend of the 5 Rings.
You'll learn to adapt Bushido to a wide variety of situations and attitudes, or you'll go through a lot of characters. |
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| Guest_MK Ultra_* |
 Apr 10 2006, 11:20 PM
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#3
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Guests |
:rotfl: bullshido :grinbig: sorry :rotfl: bullshido :D
Have to read this now, for my upcomming L5R round. :D bullshido :grinbig: |
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Apr 10 2006, 11:20 PM
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#4
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
You know what? For a long time I've wanted to play some systems that seemed pretty cool, notably Legend of 5 Rings and GUPRS. Intellectually, I really really wanted to try them out. But I have never, ever been able to find a game that is something other than Shadowrun or D&D, with Shadowrun being quite rare. In fact, I've never successfully convinced anyone to take up RPG gaming. So, I would go and play Legend of 5 Rings, but I can't. So there. |
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Apr 10 2006, 11:25 PM
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#5
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
my main character, Italy, works something like that, minus the self-torture. he very cleanly divides himself between the man who has a wife and son he loves and cares for, and the killer who will do anything the job requires. the only interaction between the two of them is that the man occasionally gets to say "no, we're not taking this job". it's not quite a split personality, but it's a very definite split in his psyche. he doesn't draw any power from it, or anything. it's just who he is.
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Apr 10 2006, 11:32 PM
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#6
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
I read a bit of Bullshido and found it obnoxious and acrimonious, not to mention wrong more often than they'd like to admit. I'm honestly not sure which is worse: witless Japanophiles or the kneejerk against them.
This article, in particular, is mostly not bad, but still pushes too far in the other direction from what I'm guessing was a silly post in praise of the "wise oriental old man sitting on a rock contemplating a flying crane while grassopah walks on rice paper." |
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Apr 10 2006, 11:41 PM
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#7
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
I've been a pretty enthusiastic martial arts hobbyist for around 8 years now and bullshido.net is the best place for martial arts information on the internet. I like it so much that I spend most of my online time there. You do occasionally get people making statements that are factually incorrect but that's because there's tens of thousands of members. Of course some people are going to make silly statements. On the other hand, though, there are people there who really know their stuff. One example would be the poster Asia who is a very experienced long-time martial arts practitioner who also serves in the Army where he's done martial arts instruction. He typically displays a wealth of knowledge about traditional asian martial arts, Japanese language, and Japanese cultural detail. A lot of people go to bullshido.net and the first time out because of the high volume of insults, ragging, and jokes, they think that it's all angry middle schoolers who started wrestling last year. But the fact is that that's only the superficial appearance. There is extremely good discussion and work being done there and very thorough investigations of frauds. How many martial arts forums on the internet can say that they busted frauds like David Bannon? I personally have participated in that investigation by translating some legal inquiries into French which were sent to the town hall in Marseille, France. I have physically visited the French Quarter and courthouses in New Orleans (looking through court records) to help investigate the claims made by Dan Webre, and found them to be totally unsubstantiated. The fact of the matter is that there is no other forum on the internet which has no-holds-barred discussion, which was directly responsible for so much investigation against frauds, and which dosen't have rules that prevent you from calling bullshit on a man who posts. Once you've settled down in bullshido.net most other internet forums lose their appeal. |
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Apr 11 2006, 12:17 AM
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#8
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
what about it goes 'too far'? from a psychological point of view, i found it to be pretty accurate. guys who kill people often need some sort of psychological construct to deal with the act of killing people; bushido works as well as any other method, in that regard. i have a hard time believing that thinking a certain way all the time will make you swing your sword more accurately, or parry more effectively, or (to bring things into more modern times) shoot straighter. i have a very easy time believing that thinking a certain way all the time will help you process the effects of accurate sword swings and straight shooting. |
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Apr 11 2006, 12:31 AM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
Actually, MFB, carrying that thought further could result in more accuracy.. Depends on personality type. If you're going to agonize over pain, suffering or death inflicted by your hands, then not having a construct to deal with that can seriously impede your ability to let yourself use your skills to the fullest. Hesitation, flinching.. inability to focus entirely on the fight.. Hardly everyone, and I have no idea if it's minor or major portions of people.. but a non-zero amount, I'm sure. |
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Apr 11 2006, 12:56 AM
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#10
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Then of course, you can simply rationalize everything through the simple arts of denial.
IE: "Everyone in here is a fake. The whole world is a fake, and we're making fake worlds within our fake world. Only those awakened to the possibility that the world is a fake are real, and those people are the ones like me anyway. The rest don't deserve to live, and though I won't go out of my way to kill them, I won't feel bad about dropping them in their tracks if they get in my way." Ahhh, psychopathy. :) |
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Apr 11 2006, 01:10 AM
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#11
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
"Call me Neo"
that would be the explanation for the 'nobody is real' philosophy oh and on the bullshido is wrong I first encountered it when someone used a 'disproof' on it to 'prove' that certain nerve strikes were ineffective and useless. unfortunately when a set of researchers on the web disagrees with my Eyeball Mk1, eyeball wins out |
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Apr 11 2006, 01:50 AM
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#12
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,401 Joined: 23-February 04 From: Honolulu, HI Member No.: 6,099 |
On a side note, I feel the role of the samurai in SR is getting less and less clear. With the inclusion of adepts, mercenaries, weapons specialists, the duties get a little hazy.
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Apr 11 2006, 02:06 AM
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#13
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Seeing should definitely not always be believing. Just ask James Randi about this. There were plenty of people who saw, believed, tried to claim the $1 million prize, and were proven wrong in laboratory settings. I'm not sure if the bullshido.net video archives are up right now or not, but normally at this link you can view an investigative news clip where a journalist exposes the ineffectiveness of a fat Dillman-trained pressure point martial arts instructor. In the case of this instructor he had a school full of students with two mk1 eyeballs who saw...and were completely wrong. http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=...warticle&id=122 (Incidentally, if you look closely at the footage of the school you notice there's a printout on the wall that says www.deathtouchdemo.com; snork!) EDIT: The file seems to be there, yay. If the embedded video dosen't play the link just below that will let you download dimmak.rm (7.28 megs) to your machine. |
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Apr 11 2006, 02:32 AM
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#14
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
with the vast majority of people who commonly fight other people, it doesn't work that way. people don't, as a general rule, break down during a fight; they break down after a fight, when they have time to sit and think about what happened. once they get back into a fight, they're okay, because they've got other things to think about--unless they're really broken, in which case it's still not a matter of how accurate their swing is or how straight their shooting is. |
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Apr 11 2006, 02:36 AM
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#15
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
Not all nerve strikes are one shot Dim Mak KOs
The Nerve strikes and pressure points I was referring to were all pain oints, the discussion was trying to claim they were useless in a fight Funny how some of the more respected Security training centers teach them as a means of subduing people |
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Apr 11 2006, 02:40 AM
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#16
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i don't believe WR is discounting all pressure-point techniques.
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Apr 11 2006, 02:46 AM
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#17
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
no he was trying to discount eyeball MK1 as a valid evidence measure
OTOH I find WEBspeak less valid, but hey YMMV |
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Apr 11 2006, 02:53 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
As a general rule, I fully expect you're correct mfb -- although it does depend on how involved you get in the fight. It's just something that can happen -- and would very likely only matter at the start. That first exchange, for instance, when you haven't gotten into the correct mindset. I am not saying that it is common. I'm saying that it can happen, where someone has the mental stumbling block on hurting someone, so they aren't at their best. The fistfighter who has a mental block on hitting women, so always hesitates, and can be blocked, parried, dodged, whatever, is an example of what I mean. A mental situation, which affects accuracy and effectiveness. |
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Apr 11 2006, 03:10 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,784 |
What a mean thing to say about poor Emo
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Apr 11 2006, 03:32 AM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Yeah, I think I remember some people claiming they were really hampered in rolling vs. women because they had a hard time attacking them all out. |
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Apr 11 2006, 03:34 AM
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#21
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
eh, yeah. like you said, though, that's more of a personal quirk than a general rule. in general, bushido or whatever is useful for keeping your shit between the ditches after the fight, rather than making you a super-samurai during it.
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Apr 11 2006, 04:10 AM
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#22
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Yeah. After all, I think it can be argued that longer successful in-between maintenance is more useful than an in-action mental high. BTW, re the pressure point argument. No one is arguing that pressure points don't exist. The problem is pressure point proponent who vastly overstate their effectiveness and tend to make up bullshit arguments like, "if an enraged boxer kept trying to punch me in the head I'd just grab his arm and drive my thumb into the meaty top part of the forearm and pwn him because I know t3h pressure points", or "grapplers can't beat me because I'd use a pressure point and then go for t3h eye gouge." I used to play judo as an undergrad and my judo instructor told me the story of a man he knew who kept trying to use pressure point as a way to circumvent having to go through the seemingly difficult steps of learning judo grappling from the ground up. For years instead of just trying to grapple, accepting defeat, and continually just trying new strategies until he found something that he could make work, he was obessed with trying to get a shortcut. Every time you did randori with him instead of working with positioning, joint locks, or any of the meat and bones of grappling, he'd just go and use his arms in an isolated way to try and gogue your pressure points. Grappling with him was painful, yes, but he also never won because he was too afraid of going through the work he needed to do to build a firm foundation for himself. So, basically, the problem is that usually the marketing of pressure point and dim mak is designed to appeal to people who want to be able to win fights and feel sure of themselves without having to exercise, feel pain, or struggle at something difficult for years to build truly solid fundamentals. By and large I don't think that respected posters at bullshido.net will deny that pressure points can have their place as a supplement to a solid "delivery system". The reason that bullshido.net tends to come down hard on pressure point proponents is because there's really a big problem right now of pressure points being touted as vastly more effective on their own than they really are. In my opinion the marketing of people like Dillman is designed to appeal to people like I described in the above paragraph; people who are in search of the quick fix. It is because of this facet of the marketing of pressure points to martial arts consumers that people like me have a problem with how they're usually presented. |
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Apr 15 2006, 02:24 PM
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#23
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
Good point. I have belts in Judo and Akido and have had to use them to defend myself in RL against muggers. For those who don't know, I'm female, 5' 1" and use to live in NYC.
Sure it would be great to pull off text book moves to do max damage with the minimum of exertion. BUT real life is NEVER as clean and dried as hwat happens on the mat. You try to make it perfect on the mat so that if you have to use it in RL a perfect mat routine will give you a better than average performance. Looking back on the last time it happened, I can safely say no one practices on a mat in pumps, hose and skirt suit. I ended on my rump, broke a heel(of a shoe), scrapped my knee and tore the hose. Oh, and I broke his arm in 3 places, but it was a damn sloppy move. |
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Apr 15 2006, 04:48 PM
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#24
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
Sloppy move or not, you succeeded in defending yourself and pulled off the move. That's what counts.
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Apr 17 2006, 05:20 AM
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#25
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
I get what ya are coming from so combining what you say with my experience over there, the excessively Anit PP asshats I encountered were a reaction to the BS excessuvely Pro PP asshats that had been all over there in the months before I got there That makes more sense my own fighting background is mostly a smattering of various martial arts with a lot of dirty streetfighting experience am seriously out of practice and shape thesedays, but in my day used to have a lot of fun going up against the kinds of Black Belts that are all like "OMFG I have a BLACK BELT I am 133t Ninja Badass lolololol" In my experience knowinga few pain and muscle fucking PPs, combined with techniques and strategies that allow you to reach the points, can improve your overall effectiveness, possibly by up to 50% then again in reference to ya shortcut guy 50% improvement from crap is just 'crap and a half' |
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