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> metatypes unbalanced?, are the BP costs for metahumans fair?
captainwhizz
post Apr 10 2006, 10:46 PM
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sorry if this has been discussed before, it's my first time on the board, but does anyone else think that the BP costs for the different metatypes are broken?
specifically, for Elves. I realise that Orks, Dwarves and Trolls all have reduced racial maximums and Elves don't, but looking at starting characters:

Ork: 20 BPs. Attribute bonuses: 5 (50 BPs-worth). Low Light Vision.

Dwarf: 25 BPs. Attribute bonuses: 4 (40 BPs-worth). Thermographic Vision, Path/ Tox resistance.

Elf: 30 BPs. Attribute bonuses: 3 (30 BPs-worth). Low Light Vision.

Troll: 40 BPs. Attribute bonuses: 8 (80 BPs-worth). Thermographic Vision, extra Reach, extra Armour

An Elf pays 10 BPs more than an Ork, but gets 20 BPs-worth less attribute boosts. Does capping the Ork's Charisma and Logic at one lower than norm really account for a 30 BPs difference?
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FanGirl
post Apr 10 2006, 10:53 PM
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If you made it advantageous to be an elf, the shadows would be overrun by them. I mean, elves are awesome enough that The Powers That Be need to give the other races special incentives just to ensure diversity.
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Ophis
post Apr 10 2006, 10:55 PM
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Major point agility is the best ability score, look how many skills link to it, yes elves are worth 30. Orcs are cheap though, thats volume for you :)
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Synner
post Apr 10 2006, 11:00 PM
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Don't forget that Orks (and Trolls for that matter) get an unspoken disadvantage - racial prejudice and marginalization (at least in proper society)... depending on how much roleplaying and NPC interaction figures in your game that can be a pretty powerful disadvantage.
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captainwhizz
post Apr 10 2006, 11:21 PM
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Orks and Trolls get discriminated against, but they can smack the stuffing out of people too.

It's not a huge problem, but it just bugs me that it doesn't seem properly balanced.
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Dissonance
post Apr 10 2006, 11:28 PM
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Well, another thing to consider is that body is really a reactive stat. Sure, you can soak more damage and, like, add one die to certain social intimidation tests if you have a body above six, but it's really difficult to use the body stat proactively against somebody.

Well, with the exception of athletics type stuff.

Stuff like strength and agility and charisma and agility and all that? Those are the stats you use to actively F someone up. Body's prime use is damage mitigation.
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James McMurray
post Apr 10 2006, 11:29 PM
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Dwarves and trolls get to pay more for their gear also, at least the size specific stuff. It doesn't come into play during character creation, but the longer the campaign runs the more of a downside it can be.
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Kremlin KOA
post Apr 11 2006, 01:19 AM
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QUOTE (captainwhizz)
Orks and Trolls get discriminated against, but they can smack the stuffing out of people too.

It's not a huge problem, but it just bugs me that it doesn't seem properly balanced.

"Subject is showing the symptoms"

"Better get him to ultrasound, check if we need a biopsy"

"This is becomming more common"

"Yeah D20 radiation cancer cases are almost everywhere now"
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FanGirl
post Apr 11 2006, 03:04 AM
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I wonder whether captainwhizz really wants to play an elf. If he preferred another meta race, I'd imagine that his comments would be more along the lines of "Ha ha, Orks and Trolls get more attribute points than stupid gimpy keebs!" Anyway, you shouldn't let balance issues steer you away from elfhood if that's what you truly want. Remember, role over rollplaying!

I've noticed that humans are absent from your equation. Humans get the worst deal, statwise: one measly Edge point. This is clearly anti-human discrimination! With their inferior stats, humans have nothing from which to defend themselves against the other races. This injustice cannot stand! Think of the children!

The above paragraph is brought to you by the Humanis Policlub. :P
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Jaid
post Apr 11 2006, 03:30 AM
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of course, humans actually get the best bonus... something for nothing :P

but actually, elves are fine as is, IMO.

for one thing, YES, that penalty to log and cha really hurts.

you may not realise just how much. for example, both of the current magic traditions require at least one of those attributes.

charisma is a huge thing in SR, for *everyone* in the team. you really, really don't want your cha 1 troll ganger threatening the Yaks, or for that matter failing to give rigid attention to japanese etiquette when in his presence. it makes your team look unprofessional, and that reduces your pay. and, in the wrong situation, can get you killed.

if you are trying to con your way into someplace as part of your run, that 1 charisma troll better have some skill, or he automatically gets 0 net hits... not so good, because it frags over the entire team, not just him.

Anytime you want to get gear, or do legwork, charisma will come into play. and legwork is huge in SR.

also, logic is worth free BPs for knowledge skills. and yes, knowledge skills are good to have in SR.

furthermore, charisma is an important attribute for all magicians, regardless of tradition (For spirits) and is also important for technomancers (for sprites, and for not having your brain come dripping out of your ears).

so, yes, that penalty to logic and charisma is not like the half-orc from D&D, where you can pretty much never worry about them (and for that matter, it's not even a big penalty even if those are important stats to your character)... this is 1/6 of your maximum for each point, and it also affects the maximum you can ever get.

frankly, all things considered, unless trolls start off with their bod and str almost maxed out, they are going to be hurting when it comes time to raise those stats later....

oh, and finally... phsyical stats are easy to boost, generally speaking, compared to mental ones... so a large bonus to physical stats is not as big of a deal, because a human can get to 9 strength, body, agility, and reaction much more readily than a troll can get to his whopping augmented max of 6 in logic and charisma.
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FanGirl
post Apr 11 2006, 03:39 AM
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QUOTE (Jaid)
of course, humans actually get the best bonus... something for nothing :P

Humanis Policlub isn't based on logic or reason. It is based on fear, hatred, sanctimoniousness, and lots of yelling.
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eidolon
post Apr 11 2006, 03:46 AM
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QUOTE (Kremlin KOA)

"Yeah D20 radiation cancer cases are almost everywhere now"


:rotfl:
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Glyph
post Apr 11 2006, 07:53 AM
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Elves actually have a good deal. Essentially they sacrifice a point of Edge to have the ability to start out with higher Agility and/or Charisma. Attributes are much more important now, and with the last/maximum point costing extra, having a higher cap also means much more. Getting 6 Agility or 7 Charisma for only 40 points is huge. They make awesome speed sammies, faces, and mages.

A troll will start out with incredible Attributes, but their only truly high scores can be in Body and/or Strength, and over time they will be far more limited.
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captainwhizz
post Apr 11 2006, 10:26 AM
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QUOTE (FanGirl @ Apr 10 2006, 10:04 PM)
I wonder whether captainwhizz really wants to play an elf.  If he preferred another meta race, I'd imagine that his comments would be more along the lines of "Ha ha, Orks and Trolls get more attribute points than stupid gimpy keebs!"  Anyway, you shouldn't let balance issues steer you away from elfhood if that's what you truly want.  Remember, role over rollplaying!

I've noticed that humans are absent from your equation.  Humans get the worst deal, statwise: one measly Edge point.  This is clearly anti-human discrimination!   With their inferior stats, humans have nothing from which to defend themselves against the other races.  This injustice cannot stand!  Think of the children!

The above paragraph is brought to you by the Humanis Policlub. :P

yeah, I was looking at being a Human or Elf character, either a variant of the Weapons Specialist in the SR4 book, or a Gun For Hire/ Gunslinger character. But when I took a closer look at the metatype costs, I noticed the discrepancies, so I did a little experiment.

Using the max of 200 BPs for the 8 Attributes, I got the following:
CODE

[b]Human[/b]:
BOD AGI REA STR CHA INT LOG WIL
 4   5   4   3   3   3   3   3
200 BPs

[b]Ork[/b]:
BOD AGI REA STR CHA INT LOG WIL
 5   5   5   5   3   4   3   3
220 BPs

[b]Dwarf[/b]:
BOD AGI REA STR CHA INT LOG WIL
 5   5   4   5   3   4   3   3
225 BPs

[b]Elf[/b]:
BOD AGI REA STR CHA INT LOG WIL
 4   5   5   4   3   4   3   3
230 BPs

[b]Troll[/b]:
BOD AGI REA STR CHA INT LOG WIL
 5   5   5   5   3   4   3   3
235 BPs (and that's with a maxed AGI, could get even more Attribute points for the BP)

Now, me being me, I'd still probably play the character as Human or Elf, but when you look at the list above, and you can pay 10 BPs less for an Ork with 2 higher Attributes, or 5 BPs more for a Troll with 2 higher Attributes and the Troll bonuses, maybe you can see my point. If I notice this, then Shadowrun noobs I GM for might all rush to play Trolls and Orks.

Also note that all the above (except the human) have the same CHA, INT, LOG and WIL, so those arguments aren't really effective.

EDIT: thanks to Xavier Grimwand for help with the layout

This post has been edited by captainwhizz: Apr 11 2006, 06:13 PM
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Ophis
post Apr 11 2006, 10:43 AM
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The attribute "penalties" are not that much of a proble IMHO, since trolls can have 3 cha at the same price as a human why is it a problem? It just means they have a hard time excelling in cha based field. The penalty is just a cap It only alters the cost of the final point and everything starts at 1.
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Xavier Grimwand
post Apr 11 2006, 11:05 AM
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Tried a code block?

CODE

Human:
BOD AGI REA STR CHA INT LOG WIL
 4   5   4   3   3   3   3   3
200 BPs

...
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Shrike30
post Apr 11 2006, 05:56 PM
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QUOTE (Ophis)
The attribute "penalties" are not that much of a proble IMHO, since trolls can have 3 cha at the same price as a human why is it a problem? It just means they have a hard time excelling in cha based field. The penalty is just a cap It only alters the cost of the final point and everything starts at 1.

The way I've always seen this treated is that they start at 1-X, (putting it at 0 or -1), and since you're *required* to have a 1 in every stat, baseline, your Troll players have to raise their penalized stats to at least 1. If this changed in SR4, I missed that detail. Getting a 3 Cha if you're playing a Troll is as expensive as getting 5 Cha if you're human.
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Azralon
post Apr 11 2006, 05:58 PM
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Everyone starts at 1 in SR4 (modified by race), and then you buy up using BPs. If your race effectively has an attribute "penalty" then it just means your cap in that attribute is lower.

So, according to my understanding, a troll buying a Cha:3 has to spend 20 BP. Getting a Bod:6 costs him only 10 BP because trolls start with a 5 in Body.
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captainwhizz
post Apr 11 2006, 06:30 PM
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QUOTE (Shrike30)
The way I've always seen this treated is that they start at 1-X, (putting it at 0 or -1), and since you're *required* to have a 1 in every stat, baseline, your Troll players have to raise their penalized stats to at least 1. If this changed in SR4, I missed that detail. Getting a 3 Cha if you're playing a Troll is as expensive as getting 5 Cha if you're human.

In SR4, getting CHA 3 for a Troll costs exactly the same as getting to CHA 3 for a Human. check out the table on p73.


OK, for a slightly more balanced version I came up with in 5 minutes (but still unfair on humans), I present the Captain Whizz formula for calculating the BP cost of Metatypes:

Number of attribute increases over the base (of 1), multiplied by 10 BPs
+
special vision at 10 BPs
+
extra modifier (5 BPs for the Dwarf, 15 for the Troll)
-
number of reductions to attribute maximums (of 6), multiplied by 5 BPs.

then divide the whole thing by 2.

Following this formula, the costs would be:

Ork: 25 (5 more than SR4)
Dwarf: 25 (no change)
Elf: 20 (-10)
Troll: 40 (no change)

now, I'm not saying that this is fair by any means, but to my mind it seems fairer (on Elves especially) than the current system. I put the 'divide by 2' at the end of the formula because it matched the Dwarf and Troll costs, and this can be justified as compensation for racism encountered. However, I'd rather have each race pay the full cost, minus 10 BP that Human Characters get for extra Edge:

Number of attribute increases over the base (of 1), multiplied by 10 BPs
+
special vision at 10 BPs
+
extra modifier (5 BPs for the Dwarf, 15 for the Troll)
-
number of reductions to attribute maximums (of 6), multiplied by 5 BPs
-
10 BPs to account for Humans' bonus Edge

This would leave the costs as:

Ork: 40 (10 more than SR4)
Dwarf: 40 (+15)
Elf: 30 (no change)
Troll: 70 (+30)

the costs may look a little extreme at first, but for 70 BPs you're a freakin' Troll.


So, what do people think?
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Moon-Hawk
post Apr 11 2006, 07:46 PM
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Look, way back in SR history, FASA tried making all the metatypes mechanically balanced. The result? Everyone played elves. F***ing elf fanboys/girls. (not to say I haven't played my share) Except for the people who played trolls.
I think if you include the game mechanical balance (unbalanced as it is), combine that with in-game prejudice, combine with that the out-of-game prejudices of the players toward the different metatypes, and I think you'll find that each metatype begins to crop up about as often as any other.
In other words, I think you should leave it as-is, because if they're mechanically balanced, then believe it or not, it unbalances them.
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Shrike30
post Apr 11 2006, 08:17 PM
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:eek: Dude.

That is a serious change from SR3- that I didn't even notice.

I wonder if my players did? Our ork shaman might have higher stats than he thinks...
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Azralon
post Apr 11 2006, 08:21 PM
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When describing the races to new SR players, I (over)generalize thusly:

Trolls: Best beatstick performance. Highest cost.
Elves: Highest accuracy and face performance. High cost.
Dwarves: Best durability-to-cost ratio. Medium cost.
Orks: Best beatstick performance-to-cost ratio. Low cost.
Humans: Best overall performance-to-cost ratio. Lowest cost.
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fool
post Apr 11 2006, 08:35 PM
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actually, if yoyu add in all the minuses that the diferent metatypes get then all the metatypes wind uop with a net of +3 attributes. Now remember that limiting an attribute is more severe than upping one is beneficial (imo at least), and your metatypes become much more balanced.
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James McMurray
post Apr 11 2006, 08:47 PM
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How severe a limitation is greatly depends on the chaacter. For most typical orks and trolls, not being able to get a 6 charisma is not a limit at all.

captainwhizz: I'd never allow the elf at less than 30BP. +2 agility is way too powerful, as it affects a huge number of skills that every shadowrunner should have (guns, infiltration, palming, and a coupl others I can't think of withotu a chart in front of me to look at).
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FrankTrollman
post Apr 11 2006, 08:52 PM
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QUOTE (Moonhawk)
Look, way back in SR history, FASA tried making all the metatypes mechanically balanced.


No they didn't. They tried to make every metatype objectively disadvantageous. You spent your fucking "A" priority to be a metahuman and there was no way in hell that it was worth it. You got a total of +3 to your attributes, and your discretionary points fell by sixx and you got less skill points and equipment. It was a thorough pantsing and the intention was to make it so that only people who really wanted to play a metahuman would do so - it being objectively a bad choice and all.

However in the long run, the higher attribute maximums meant that a metahuman could eventually get to places that a normal human couldn't. Lots of people flocked to Elves because at the limit of infinite karma they were a raw power-up of humans. In other news, Trolls had modifiers so huge that if you were going to tank your social and observational skills anyway it was worth considering right out of the gate. Dwarves and Orks were left in the dust because they didn't do anything all that special and were objectively a disadvantage.

Later on they tried pumping up the power of these guys to attempt to get people to play them. Heck, in the SR3 Companion rules, being a Dwarf is a point bonus. You pay 5 character points and you get 8 character points worth of attributes and disease resistance. There's no reason to not be a Dwarf except dignity.

Orks fit in that position in SR4. They're the guys who had been played the least in previous editions and now the authors have overreacted to the point where the game just pays you build points if you write "Ork" on your character sheet. Just think - if they'd just made all the races mechanically balanced in the first place, none of this would be necessary. Some people would be Humans, and other people would be Elves, and we wouldn't care.

-Frank
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