 What a hose up!, A run gone astray. |
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  Apr 11 2006, 03:31 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 18-March 02 From: Plymouth UK. Member No.: 2,408  |
This weeks session, which had taken the team two weeks to plan, was insane.
They had to break into a United Oil facility in Tacoma, This facility was rather large, 1km by 1km. The only entrance was via "secure" tunnel under the fence, with security "chokepoints" at either end. The compound was fenced off by a Semi monowire fence topped with a mono & razorwire mixture, about 10m high, and every 15m or so there was a sensor cluster. They were looking for evidence of United Oil using this facility to pollute part of the Barrens, and for a large bonus sabotarge it if possible. The time frame was a week. After the first plan, of disguising themselves as a cleaning crew and placing records into the system requiring them to "clean", was scuppered by all cleaning being done on site. The backup plan was levitate the (cat) shaman, hacker and samurai over the fence, and infiltrate the building security station. With the Face and Mystic adept on the lookout nearby, doubling as reinforcements. Things were going well, team 1 had reached the control room, without incident, when team 2, saw what they thoughth was a security barghest and handler enter the security station after team 1. As the team was on radio silence they decided to intervene. This was accomplished by the mystic adept, also a troll, throwing the face, with rope, across the fence and then rappelling on top of the security building. While this was going on team 1 gained access to the main security office by magically "convincing" the guards they wanted to take a long toilet stop. Then the hacker and the samurai geeked the two people "asleep" in their chairs (security rigger and mage). The mage returned to his dead body and blasted the shaman with a manabolt while he was perceiving, then his astral form got pulped by the two spirits the shaman had on call. Team 2 than got spotted sneaking into main security, a commcall was placed to said building which the hacker answered, something reminiscent of a scene from star wars happened "boring conversation anyway". Two sec guards were sent to check out the "weird call". The ambush went wrong and they were forced to fire with the door open. Alerting most of the facility (I made the roll anyway) Now they were under siege in the sec station. (100 guards, 2 mages, 10 jeeps and 1 tank!, all of which they knew in advance). My dice deserted me as they were able to loot the armoury, the hacker dumped himself, painfully, as he crashed the system, as it went into alert mode and launched black IC. The run at this point got abandoned in favor of escape. The sam glitched his demolitions roll with no edge remaining, setting his explosives wrong. The shaman nearly killed himself summoning 3 force 8 spirits of man, which all powerbolted the roof at force 16! This resulted in the roof collapsing and the sam getting trapped under rubble. To cut the rest short the sam and the face got hit with the badly set up explosives, they fired all but one of their 3 "free" strikers. They lost their spare team van to tank fire and all needed hospitalization. Oh yeah one of their fixers has dropped a loyalty point, because of uncouth sam refusing to apologize and being quite insulting about it. Comments? Suggestions? Sorry to waffle on. |
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Apr 11 2006, 03:44 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 137 Joined: 21-February 06 From: Lenexa, Kansas (Yes Kansas, we ain't all hicks y'all.) Member No.: 8,291 |
On the one hand, as a SR player who prides himself on professionalism I feel I should say, "Oh no! That went terribly, what a disaster." But on the other hand, as a guy who secretly loves explosions, chaos, tanks, and gratuitous gunfights gone terribly, terribly wrong I say right on! Sounds like a lot of fun!
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Apr 11 2006, 03:48 PM
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#3
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,486 Joined: 17-March 05 From: Michigan Member No.: 7,180 |
I'm confused as to how some of them lived. The sam literally had the roof colapse in on him, and ws then blown up by his own explosives... and somehow walked away from that and got himself to a hospital? If the team's van was blown up by the tank (which I assumed lived) how did the group get away on foot?
This was definatly an entertaining run-gone-wrong story, but I'm even more interested in hearing how the group managed to avoid a total-party-wipe. |
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Apr 11 2006, 04:07 PM
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#4
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
Hah good stuff. Reminded me of the good old days with my players!
Nitpicking though, I don't think you can't summon 3 unbound spirits, only 1 at any given time. |
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Apr 11 2006, 04:17 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 18-March 02 From: Plymouth UK. Member No.: 2,408 |
The sam was only clipped by both the roof and his own explosion and took minimal damage. He also happens to be an ork. The van (bulldog) was his twice the first time it nearly took lots of damage but kept running just, but crashed the hacker/rigger (dwarf) was on 7 phys and 9 stun at the time. They got out and ran/hobbled then the van was taken out by the second shot! The shamen/school kid (elf) was on about 6-7 phys, having already healed himself earlier n the run. The Samurai/merc (ork) was on about 11 phys, and 3-4 stun. The face/gunslinger (elf) was on about 7-8 boxes. Only one without lots of pain was the Troll mystic adept about 3-4 boxes tops. Fortunatley for them they escaped into the ork underground of which the sam is a member. A lot of bribes later they're in hospital. Simple really. |
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Apr 11 2006, 04:19 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 18-March 02 From: Plymouth UK. Member No.: 2,408 |
Yeah, actually, you may be right there. Though it was 5 am real time at the time! Any suggestion for the team? |
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Apr 11 2006, 04:29 PM
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#7
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
I'm still trying to work out how to handle that particular possibility. It's been brought up before, but I'm going to review it for those who didn't see it the first time. I refer to it as the "spiritual tacnuke." It's entirely legal (if not risky) for a magician to summon a spirit at twice his Magic. Then it's also entirely legal (and again, risky) for that spirit to cast some big whammy spell at twice its Force on behalf of the caster. So what the magician is effectively doing is getting a spell cast at four times his Magic rating at the cost of summoning one beefy spirit. ~~~~~ Specific example: Bob Destructo is an elven summoner shaman built pretty potently with a Magic:5, Willpower:5, Charisma:7, and Summoning (Man):5(7). We'll ignore any totem or item bonuses for this example, since he's throwing a nice 12 dice to summon and soak. Bob whips up a Force 10 spirit of Man. Odds are he'll roll 4 hits and the spirit will roll 3; that's okay because all Bob needs is a net of one. His drain is 6P, and he'll likely soak 4 of that to end up with 2P on his damage track; not enough for any penalties, and easily erased via First Aid or the Heal spell. Bob is feeling saucy, so he loads up Powerbolt into his new buddy's Innate Spell power, and then instructs the spirit to go lay a Force 20 whammy upon that supertroll over yonder. The spirit rolls its 10 Spellcasting + 10 Force for, say, 6 hits. The targeted troll has a big ol' 12 Body and 3 Counterspelling dice just for sake of gravy. The troll gets an average 5 hits, so the spell gets through with 1 net hit. The troll now has 21 boxes of damage on his Physical track and vanishes in a puff of exploitation. In the afterworld, the supertroll is eternally teased for dying to a Powerbolt with one net hit. Meanwhile, back at the spirit, our feisty Force 10 now has to soak 11P drain. It's got 20 dice to deal with that, so likely will get 6 hits and shrug most of it off. Plus it's got a whopping 10 Edge to help out if it really doesn't feel like straining itself too much. Even if it doesn't soak much of the drain, Bob won't care as the spirit's one service just got used up anyway. So long, and thanks for all the carnage. ~~~~~ The shaman in the example isn't as maxed out as he could be, obviously, but even a lesser model is capable of devastation on approximately the same scale. You could just as easily have a Magic:3 magician get a Force:6 spirit to throw down a Force:12 Fireball. The spirit would likely get smacked hard from the drain, but not as badly as the guys who just got megatoasted. You can't even easily say "Spirits will get annoyed if you keep having them overcast" because summoners routinely send spirits out to engage in lethal combat. No one's likely to pick up Spirit Bane just because a spirit got shot. Technically speaking, the spirit isn't even getting killed, just disrupted (i.e.: sent back home). So it's not getting "hurt" in the metaphysical sense. So I dunno. Innate Spell is very handy from a utility standpoint, but boy howdy does it add to the "summoning is overpowered" issue. I'd say Innate Spell and Immunity to Normal Weapons are the two biggest problems in that arena. |
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Apr 11 2006, 04:35 PM
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#8
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
Retire? Seriously, though, one of the reasons I like Shadowrun so much (and have since what, 1989? 1990? Whenever it came out) is that it demands a certain level of professionalism from its players. Planning is just as, if not more important than execution. Your players needed a bit better communication, as long as some sort of contingency plan. The key to a successful operation is to not have to make decisions in the middle of the operation. For example, when the back-up team saw the barghest patrol, they had to make a snap decision; that contingency should have already been planned for. A friend of mine has an excellent site with tips for Shadowrunners at http://www.highprogrammer.com/alan/gaming/...vival_tips.html. |
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Apr 11 2006, 04:40 PM
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#9
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Wow, scary example. If I wanted to argue with the above, I would say that there is a difference between being told to go fight something and maybe take damage, but have a chance to avoid it completely based on your ability vs being told to shoot yourself in the arm, where you will, with 100% certainty, take physical damage which you may or may not resist. I'm not saying that I am arguing the point, just that if I did want to use repeated overcasting to justify a spirit bane, this is the argument I'd use. |
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Apr 11 2006, 04:45 PM
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#10
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Yeah, that's the best I could come up with too. The spirit isn't actually getting hurt in any long-term, meaningful way (not like depleting its Force would), but it definitely seems more rude than Binding. However, taking Stun damage for someone else is pretty annoying too (and has the exact same result on a spirit as Physical) so it's still not a nicely pat concept. :( |
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Apr 11 2006, 05:09 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 17-April 05 Member No.: 7,341 |
Where is it specified that you can choose the force of the spell that the Spirit will use ?
My understanding was that you are giving a command to the spirit, and that he will do his best to fulfill it... but you cannot say : cast force 20 manabolt, can you ? |
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Apr 11 2006, 05:12 PM
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#12
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
It's not specified in any way that I'm aware of, Chev. I wish it were.
Side note: I'd be happy if it said "Spirits will never overcast. Also, they'll use their own Edge only to avoid damage or other ill effects upon themselves." Then Spirit Affinity could have a concrete game mechanic of something like "These spirits will spend their Edge as the summoner sees fit." Spirit Bane could say "These spirits always spend Edge when resisting the character's summoning or attacking the character." |
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Apr 11 2006, 05:18 PM
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#13
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Spending edge to get more successes on your power ball could easily be viewed as avoiding damage. More dead enemies = less bullets your way.
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Apr 11 2006, 06:13 PM
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#14
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Okay, so slip the word "immediate" in before "damage." :)
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Apr 11 2006, 08:00 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 137 Joined: 21-February 06 From: Lenexa, Kansas (Yes Kansas, we ain't all hicks y'all.) Member No.: 8,291 |
Everytime one of these examples comes up I grow more sad. It terrifies me how much of magic seems to be "Huh, this is pretty tough, time to take the kid's gloves off FORCE HOJILLION SPELL OF DOOOOOOOOOOMMM!!!! Oh hell, I've taken 3 boxes of damage, fortunately everyone who ever thought anything bad about me is lying in a pool of their own blood."
Good thing I love houserules. |
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Apr 11 2006, 08:16 PM
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#16
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Last session things were getting really hairy, in a punny way. We went up against a number of Werewolves. Not the whimpy Shapeshifter Wolf variety, but a GM cooked critter that is created by infection of a human. It may or may not be a HMHVV variant, our big mojo contacts couldn't say for sure.
The mage dropped a force 12 Manabolt, via mage goggles, on one and I believe either used a point of Edge or just rolled really well and took only 1 box of drain. Damn thing didn't go down. Well anything worth doing is worth overdoing, so she dropped another force 12 on him. Took out the creature, but she ended up with 6 boxes P in total. Compared that to the gun bunny who was toe to toe with a wildly swinging wolfie and the gun bunny came away with no damage, although he did use up more Edge in the process (the Mage only has Edge 2 to start with). So I'd say just there is some value in finensing the force a bit. 8) |
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Apr 11 2006, 08:41 PM
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#17
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
That there is a key phrase to SR4's new magical mechanics, methinks. So is:
The new magic system encourages the following two casting modes for magicians: 1) Take No Drain (aka "I could keep this up all day.") 2) Take No Prisoners (aka "Damn the torpedoes!") Option #1 is primarily seen when using low-force spells, or spells with easy enough drain codes to where a mage will cast them at a low force repeatedly until the ideal number of hits are generated (ex: Increase Reflexes). At that point drain really isn't a factor for the mage. Option #2 is seen mostly during "go time." If there's a room full of gunsels and the mage has the drop on them, then by gum there's going to be a Force 10 Ball Lightning and a seriously hurt mage. But, at least the mage will know the maximum damage he's going to do to himself (and hope to lessen it) while he's busy destroying the opposition. It's basically "hit point economics" at that point. The way Edge works also promotes Option #2. If I'm going to cast my big whammy, then I'll spend a point to increase its effectiveness and make sure I'm getting the best bang for my buck. Also, I'll spend another point on my drain test to make sure I don't collapse long enough to get to cover. Yeah, it's two points of Edge and some Physical damage spent but, like the man said, "you should see the other guy." ~~~~~ Is SR4 magic broken? Not as much as SR3 was, but it's still pretty easily exploited. .... Until you look at what a smartlinked MGL-12 with airburst can do. Then it's a matter of realizing "Oh. Combat is amazingly deadly all over. Alrighty then." |
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Apr 11 2006, 08:45 PM
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#18
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
so it turns right back to 'geek the mage first'... or that guy toting the grenade launcher... oh heck call in an air strike.
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Apr 11 2006, 08:52 PM
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#19
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
There ya go!
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Apr 11 2006, 08:53 PM
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#20
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
@Azralon: You missed the two important parts.
- The gun bunny took NO damage and he wasn't even in a safe position, he got ambushed instead of doing the ambushing. - The mage didn't play it particularly smart, and paid 6 boxes of P as the price. So in fact anything worth doing is worth overdoing is a falicy. She should have eased up, at the least with the second spell if not with the first. |
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Apr 11 2006, 09:14 PM
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#21
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Situationally speaking, I agree. If you know that you're not at any real risk from the opposition, then take your time and don't take drain. If you figure that you've got one shot left, then make it good one. Since combat is so (thankfully) deadly, a mage caught out in the open without assured defenses may as well blow his wad and hope to hurt the other guys enough to A) incapacitate them so they can't return fire or B) inconvenience them enough to where their returned fire is less effective. But a mage who's not that worried about return fire? Yeah, there's no reason to hurt yourself. |
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Apr 11 2006, 09:31 PM
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#22
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Here! Here! Thanks for the blow-by-blow description was a worthy read and look into how other groups attempt tasks of this calibre. Looks like they where almost there, just a few loose ends to close the deal. Maybe next time! ;) |
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Apr 11 2006, 09:38 PM
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#23
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Sorry, I didn't fully describe the situation. The mage goggles were used for the first blast only. The werewolf then moved out of LOS and they had to open the door. The troll was in ahead of the mage and took the first hit, I don't recall how much of the damage was soaked but they were still in pretty good condition. So the mage was not in direct danger. In this part of the battle they were one on one. But the troll was threatened. The mage, by going all out, greatly reduced her effectiveness in the rest of the assult. In the end she never cast another spell. If I remember correctly the only action she took after that was to jab a salad fork into the wolf she had dropped. Um, ya we were kind of short of silver. :( She should have been casting in the 7-9 force range. Still a very real chance to take damage, but not foot to the floor hard. EDIT Really there are a number of valid forces to cast, especially once you have upped your Magic to 6+. You can 3-club it, in golfing terms. But there is value there in choosing more precisely with the biggest thing holding back even more available options, most notibly at lower Magic, is my old nemesis Divide-By-2. :mad: |
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Apr 12 2006, 01:40 AM
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#24
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398 |
or an Ingram White Knight with a Sound Suppressor, a Smartlink, a Gyroharness, and loaded with EX-EX can do. He can open up with full bursts or a pair of long bursts, take no penalties from recoil, and do 14P damage with a long burst (or 17P with a full burst), with -3 AP. You can kiss anything short of a Force 7+ spirit, a tank, or a great dragon goodbye. |
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Apr 12 2006, 01:47 AM
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#25
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
You can take out larger spirits than that. Armor piercing uses the "modified damge value," which includes the hits you get on the attack roll. At least, I know vehicle armor works that way, and I'm pretty sure I remember immunity to natural weapons being the same.
Afterthought: keep in mind that added DV from burst and autofire doesn't help penetrate hardeded armro (again IIRC). Man I hate not having a book handy! |
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