 Blood spillage, how brutal are you? |
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 Apr 25 2006, 09:38 PM
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#101
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222  |
I doubt it, because I've got a feeling TheOneRonin had in mind things like ordinary rifle FMJs flattening/fragmenting when they hit hard objects. [Why not this thread? :silly: ] |
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Apr 25 2006, 10:02 PM
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#102
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
Aww, that's no fun :)
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Apr 26 2006, 02:26 AM
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#103
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
It really comes down to this, dose the GM want to run a “somebody wants to kill you” run. If so they will find a way to do so. Be it the guard you embarrassed buy knowing him out, the father of the guard you killed has authority to hire runners on eth compony tab or the Johnson on the zero profile run you pulled perfectly decides to tie up loose ends.
Buy the rules in the book the 3 most effective ammunitions based on speed of takedown are EXEX (best damage but hard to get and may make your gun explode, is better against a pain editor iff you are reliably penetrating the armour) Gel (net damage second only to EXEX with a greater chance of knockdown) Stick and shock (the unchallenged best in holdout weapons good takedown chance and -2 to all dice pools even if they resist everything else.) |
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Apr 26 2006, 08:38 AM
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#104
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
Boy, funny thing... I flat out removed EXEX from my game (and just said APDS had the same Availability code), and made stick'n'shock a shotgun-only round. YMMV of course, but it made my game a little more interesting...
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Apr 26 2006, 10:45 AM
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#105
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 23-February 04 From: Honolulu, HI Member No.: 6,099 |
I think corpsec or organization retaliation falls under the usual 'how this affects the bottom line'. If its going to be 'cheaper' to send out teams to geek you, than ...I dunno loss of productivity due to morale or something, the organization will possibly say, "Ah screw it."
Remember, if you piss someone off just enough, they'll drop a thorshot on ya. Course it might also be useful leaving fake evidence to point to someone else when you really frag someone off by shooting up their R&D lab, the guards, the techs, the machine, and the bathroom. |
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Apr 26 2006, 01:38 PM
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#106
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Just to be clear, I 100% agree with you. In my games, Explosive/Frag/JHP/Gel ammo pretty much has next to zero penetration against barriers (within reason). And yes, anyone who is willing to think about it for more than 15 seconds will realize why that is. However, you don't need an exact interpretation of the rules to come to the conclusion that, as written, gel rounds and explosive rounds DO have a darn good chance of penetrating a barrier. And woe to the GM who glosses over that clause when the team's Street Sam tries to shoot through a door with Gel rounds (and said Street Sam HAS read the rules).
Possibly. But I likely would have attempted to pick that apart too. Perhaps James was right...I really am an ass. :-)
So what if you are positive you know the guy's location behind the door (3' wide door, 4' wide troll), and you fire a tight group, center mass? Is that shooting through the door or at it? I think this is one of those deals where Shadowrun's abstractness comes to bite you in the ass. 8-) |
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Apr 26 2006, 01:42 PM
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#107
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
YES! Bingo! Fox 3! Tango Down! Booya! I figured it was only a matter of time before you showed up, AE. It's good to have some backup. ;-)
Because I haven't been back on the boards long enough to pick apart any others. :grinbig: |
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Apr 26 2006, 01:48 PM
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#108
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Yeah, same here...mostly. I actually ditched all of the the canon ammo types and replaced them with some real-world equivilents. No EXEX/explosive (for small arms), no "Gel" (stun, beanbag-type rounds for shotguns), no APDS (replaced with SLAP for small arms, left APDS for .50 cal and up), and a host of other things. In fact, I put together a spreadsheet with all the canon firearms + a ton of real world-ish guns that has listed caliber and normalized damage. It worked GREAT in my SR3 games, and works pretty well so far in SR4 (only done a little bit of testing). |
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Apr 26 2006, 02:20 PM
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#109
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 105 Joined: 20-April 06 From: La Islas de Republica de Bananas (Philippines) Member No.: 8,488 |
Care to post it and let me and any other interested person have a look see? :D |
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Apr 26 2006, 02:21 PM
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#110
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
I can't quite tell if you agree or disagree with me on this. Either way, groovy. :grinbig:
There are several things that have to happen BEFORE a corporation can even think about the retaliation against whomever wrecked their lab/stole their prototype/kidnapped thier R&D VP (sometimes all in the same run). #1 After Action Report. If the corp is extra-territorial, they will call in their own people to investigate the scene, review the security logs, interrogate witnesses, and just plain gather evidence. If the corp isn't extra-territorial, all that work still needs to be done, but it's done by the cops (LoneStar). Once all that is done (if the Shadowrunners weren't complete imbeciles), the evidence is put together and the corp/cops MIGHT have a lead or two to go on in figuring out "whodunit". If it's the cops, then it becomes their case...the corp won't be privy to any investigative information. If it is the internal corpsec, then the powers that be will make a decision (with help from the bean counters) as to whether or not to try to find out who is responsible and whether or not it's worth going after them. #2 Investigation. So if for some reason, the corp leadership decides it's worth the cost/effort to try and track you down, they still HAVE to do it. That sort of legwork requires time, money, and other resources. A good team will be, at worst, VERY difficult to track down. At best, nearly impossible. "But what about a mega with unlimited resources?" you might ask. Again, you need to temper that with some common sense. Their resources might be effectively unlimited, but why throw $500k to $2 million on tracking down and eliminating some lowlife shadowrunners? They just aren't going to do it. Cut their losses, minimize damage, then do some layoffs/sell more stock. If your GM has every other corp your team hits sending reprisal teams to your safe house, he is just being an unrealistic asshole. #3 Actual Reprisal. So the corp CEO is a childish, immature hardass with more money than he knows what to do with. He also takes all acts against his corporation as acts against his person, and won't hesitate to cost the company millions to satisfy his ego (I worked for this guy, believe it or not). The beancounters tell him that the run done on his corp is basically gonna come out costing the corp about 5 million nuyen. So then he throws another 2 million tracking down the guys who did it JUST so he can get his revenge. Then he sends a reprisal team in. Well those guys get wasted and their equipment gets ganked. There goes ANOTHER $500k in men, training, and equipment. So the CEO really has a case of the redass. So he sends another $4 million nuyen worth of men and weaponry to neutralize those pesky runners. This time he succeeds, at the cost of $1.5 million. So instead of just losing $5 million because of the run, the corp is now out $9 million. Yeah, I REALLY don't see that happening with many corporations in 2070. In fact, if the runners pulled off a near perfect job, I can actually see the corp trying to track them down to recruit them. All in all, reprisals will be MUCH more likely to come from criminal syndicates and pissed off runners than from the corps themselves. |
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Apr 26 2006, 02:22 PM
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#111
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
I certainly wouldn't mind, but I don't have any place to host it. Plus I've done some reworking of the armor rules, so I'd have to post those as well for the gun spreadsheet to make any sense. |
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Apr 26 2006, 02:38 PM
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#112
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
While it is generally not in the best interest of the bottom line for a corp to track runners down for revenge, they might well track runners down while trying to figure out who it was that hired the runners. That party may actually be worthy of some vengeance.
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Apr 26 2006, 03:17 PM
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#113
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 914 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626 |
Personally, I think an internal investigation will be done anyway. It's not unheard of today for large companies to have professional investigators on retainer, especially when insurance isn't likely to cover the loss. Plus, they will want an AAR to evaluate whether the security failed or if someone was running a high risk project in a low security facility. They will also need an internal investigation to determine exactly what was taken, which information compromised, and to ensure nothing was left behind (sensors, drones, toxins, etc). I'd say that the AAR identifies the needs for future upgrades, policy changes, evaluation of internal staff, and a risk assessment that evaluates the impact on the long-term. Imagine the long-term impact if someone had stolen the recipe for CocaCola back in the 60s and got the recipe printed in the Wall Street Journal or New York Times. Exactly how much would that have cost the company over the next five decades? Trade secrets can be worth much more to protect or recover simply because the value is in the uniqueness.
I agree, though the risk assessment might justify it.
IMO, most reprisals are not aimed at the runners but their employer. Attacking runners is basically shooting the messenger. Or a rat. Rats really don't learn from the extermination of their brethren; let one generation go by and they are back in force. In runner terms, a generation doesn't last more than a few years. No, what most resprisals at the runner-level shoud be one well tailored suit (aka "the combat lawyer"), a couple of well-dressed muscles, one sniper in a relatively easy to point out location and the threat of several more that are well concealed. They offer to pay the runner a consulting fee to "evaluate our security procedures and provide guidance on the types of losses that could be incurred." More than likely the runners won't be able to turn over the real johnson but they can at least twig to what was taken. Pay a nominal fee and leave the implied threat that "once is just business, twice is the beginning of an unacceptable trend." At least one person in the team will go Rambo and have to be taken out, which isn't all bad. "Corp X may pay you a visit, should it benefit their bottom line. Speak nicely and they'll pay for your time. Go commando and find yourself strewn about your own living room." |
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Apr 26 2006, 03:37 PM
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#114
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Maybe. I just don't think "vengence" is part of corporate business plan. The only exception I can possibly see is a "Don't FUCK with us" deal. If a corp A finds out that a competitor (corp B) hired a team to do a run on them, they could always deliver devastating payback in the form of another SR team who's sole job is damage the competitor in such a way that they will think twice about fucking with corp A. That also sends a message to other corps that may be thinking of sending runners against corp A.
However, that example doesn't involve any corps seeking vengence against runners. I just think it doesn't happen...at least not with any real degree of frequency. |
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Apr 26 2006, 03:45 PM
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#115
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Gotta disagree on this one. If the corp wants the info, they will most likely get it one way or another. Other than that though, I agree with most of what you're saying. your numbers are a bit off, as it doesn't take anywhere near 500,000 - 2,000,000 :nuyen: to track soemone down. If it did shadowrunners would make a lot more money on some of their jobs. Sometimes it pays to track the team down. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes you have an asshole that is willing to take the hit to his bottom line. And sometimes the corp just strikes back to give the message "don't fuck with us." Kinda like hyzmarca's view towards cop killing but applied to runners. (I think it was hyzmarca that said you have to kill one every now and then or they'll get uppity). |
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Apr 26 2006, 04:14 PM
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#116
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
VERY, very true. And much more accurate than my summation. That's pretty much how I run the corps in my game world.
Another good point. And I was gonna say something about it being pointless to target the runners who stole the trade secrets, but you pretty much cover that further down in this post.
I think ONLY if they think they have a reasonable chance of getting back what was taken before it changes hands. And being able to gather evidence, conduct an investigation, and do the legwork required to track down the shadowrunners usually takes much more time than it will take the runners to dump what they took. In your case of the Coke formula being stolen, it would be likely that by the time Coca-Cola found out their trade secret was stolen, it would already be in the hands of the corp that hired the Shadowrunners in the first place. Again, no real point in going after the thieves.
Egads! Sounds like someone plays REAL shadowrun on this board. You don't happen to live near the Baton Rouge, Louisiana area, do you? I could SOOOOO use you in my games. :D |
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Apr 26 2006, 04:48 PM
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#117
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
This is how corp wars get started. Good for shadowbusiness, though it ups the risks a lot. |
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Apr 26 2006, 05:39 PM
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#118
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
That depends entirely on how your play your different corporations. Sure, if the coporate leadership of Ares Macrotechnology wants info from the cops, I suppose it's not a stretch to say they could get it. But I think a middle of the road, mom&pop software development company with ~200 employees is not likely to have the means to get the investigative info from the cops. Nor are they really going to want to. For them, it's best to let the cops handle it. I don't play my coporations as omnicient deities that know everyone and everything that is going on everywhere at any given time. But then again, that's my game, not yours.
My numbers could be WAY off, depending upon your game. Those ballpark numbers come from some basic assumptions that I make about the corps/shadowrunners in my games. Things like the following: #1. Most corporations do not have departments dedicated soley to tracking down shadowrunners. Thus any corporate resources used in such a task keeps those assets from doing other things, like the job they were hired for or generating revenue. This is a cost. #2. Trying to track down a group of professional criminals is a cost function of Money, Time, and Work. The more Money in the equation, the less Time and Work required. If time is of the essence (and it usually is), then the only feasible way to do it is to throw lots of Money at it. This covers things like hiring ousiders who have links to the underworld, paying of informants or dirty cops, and other such things. This is another cost. #3. REAL Shadowrunners are skilled and talented professionals that do a good (if not great) job of remaining anonymous and covering their tracks. The better the runners are at keeping a low profile, the more expensive it is going to be to track them. This is a another cost. In my games, when you start tallying up all the expenses...yeah, half a mill isn't much of a stretch. And in my games, Shadowrunners DO make a lot more money than the rules book suggests. Then again, my group does, at most, a run every month. Sometimes its one run a quarter. They take big jobs, and make big money. But they aren't remotely close to rich. I play SR the same way SL James does, according to this quote:
Hmmm, see kigmatzomat's Shadowrunner/Rat analogy to understand why the "Don't fuck with us" approach won't work with Shadowrunners. Speaking of, if a Corp developed a rep for ruthelessly tracking down and butchering shadowrunners that hit them, would it make you and your team avoid them? Probably not....it really would only give you more leverage to ask for a bigger payoff. |
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Apr 26 2006, 06:20 PM
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#119
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Kinda what I said, ain't it? :0
I don't either. They don't know everything, but if they want minor things like a police report, they can get it. At least the big boys. Small fry places might not be able to, but like you said, they probably wouldn't want to anyway.
Unless you hire a team of shadowrunners to do the tracking for you. Then you're nowhere near a million.
Just because things don't work doesn't mean they aren't standard policy. Just look at the governments and corporations of today.
It depends on the rep. If a corp has successfully hunted down and personafixed (or blood sacrificed, or whatever) most of the runners who have been known to go against them I probably woouldn't run against them. YMMV Even making people ask for more money will lower the number of runs on someone. If there are multiple options for getting the exact same thing and one of those options costs more, most people will go for the cheaper option. Assuming there's no adverising going on to brainwash them into doing otherwise. ;) Johnny Mnemonic: "Alright guys, our mission is to get some crab meat. We can go against Joe's Crab Shack and hit their warehouse or we can go against Red Lobster and hit theirs." Mr. Anderson: "Doesn't Joe make a policy of hunting down everyone that runs against them, wiping their personalities, replacing them with personafix modules, and putting them in animal sex videos?" Johnny: "Yeah. At least, that's what Bill told me he heard back when we were in the band with Lincoln and Socrates. He was way cool though, so he musta been right." Mr.: "Let's hit the Lobster." Both: "Duuude." |
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Apr 26 2006, 07:06 PM
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#120
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
True. Partly. Even if they did want to, they wouldn't have the means to. In fact, I would be willing to bet any any corp shy of A rating likely wouldn't have the means to.
I wasn't talking about access to a police report. I was talking about access to all gathered evidence and files on the investigation. That stuff is most certainly not available to the general public. And since LoneStar is another corp, I'll bet they would be VERY reticent to release such information. And besides that, you know the cops hate civilians that go all "vigilante". So they would be reluctant to share that info as well.
:blink: Holy shit. I hadn't thought of that. Probably time for me to "shut-the-fuck-up" on that particular topic. :grinbig: On second thought, there is one consideration. Do you want to share all of the AAR info your corp has gathered with the guys you are going to hire, or do you leave them pretty much in the dark and give them nothing/little to work with? But still, your point is very valid. Basically, it's one of the same reasons why corps use shadowrunners in the first place.
True, but you don't get to be a wealthy and powerful corp by disregarding the bottom line. I would see that sort of thing as the exception, not the rule.
And for every one of you, there will be two "will do it for the right price" teams. It just doesn't work as a deterrance measure.
It might, it might not. If another corp wants a run done against Evil Bastards LLC, then they will pay what it takes to do it. The pool of elligible/interested runners might be a lot smaller, but it's not going to reduce the number of runs done against Evil Bastards. Now, there may be fewer "indie runs" where the runners are working for themselves and just hitting the corp for loot, but in my world those types of runs are REALLY infrequent anyway.
That theory only works if the runners want something from Evil Bastards LLC that they CAN get from somewhere else. And in my experience, Johnsons are usually pretty specific about which corp they want you to hit. Not like if the job is to hit a Shiawase nuke plant, the runners can just decide to hit a Yamatetsu plant instead. |
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Apr 26 2006, 07:36 PM
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#121
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Not every run starts with a Johnson. Sometimes the runners themselves decide they want something and don't want to buy it. It may be as part of another run ("we need a 1,000 donuts to distract the security gaurds") or as part of something else completely self-motivated ("man, I sure could go for 1,000 donuts right now").
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Apr 26 2006, 07:40 PM
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#122
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Very true. And in that particular circumstance, Evil Bastards LLC would avoid being the target of choice. So it's pretty safe to say their doughnut/snack stores will remain untouched. 8-) C'mon...that can't be ALL you've got! :spin: |
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Apr 26 2006, 07:45 PM
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#123
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Change "donut" to "ammunition," "computer supplies," or anything else that runner may decide to steal.
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Apr 26 2006, 08:01 PM
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#124
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Okay...I think your logic is startin to click. In my personal experience (and I fully acknowledge it may be different for others on this message board), runners usually don't do indie runs against corporate targets for stuff they want/need. Usually those needs are met either pre-meet (spend hard earned cash on black market goodies), during the meet (we need a $15k expense fund for this job), pre-run (we need to have XYZ gear for this run, call the Fixer!), during the run (those two HTR guys we just dopped were packing XM-30's. Grab 'em!), or after the run (okay, I'm gonna spend 3k of my share on getting some APDS ammo for this XM-30). Maybe my players just aren't motivated enough to come up with their own work. Or maybe they are just so accustomed to the way I GM, they expect to have options when it comes to gear acquisition that doesn't involve robbing a Weapons World trasport truck. So that may be sort of a Style thing. Anyone else has input on this? |
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Apr 26 2006, 08:49 PM
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#125
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
My players are just cheapasses. A recent extraction run they went on had a 20k stake budget and a 100k payoff at the end, for a 6 man team. They put a t-bird runner they know on standby, who offered them a pullout for 15k (plus "expenditures" should they occur) if they called him. The idea of having to cough up approximately 2500 nuyen apiece to have a fairly solid chance of bailing out in one piece was apparently too expensive for them, though. I don't think they've considered the cost of staying in the hospital for a few days while they get shot up trying to exfiltrate might be higher.
Ah well. I consider shrapnel injuries a "learning experience" :) There's all sorts of amazingly useful pieces of gear in the book that might make their lives easier. Jammers, spy drones, climbing gear, chameleon suits, that random stuff most runners love (or start with). Not so much this particular crew, though... they don't like spending money they don't have to. Not my problem, in the end :) |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 15th December 2025 - 04:24 AM |
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