 Blood spillage, how brutal are you? |
  |
 Apr 14 2006, 03:57 PM
Post
#26
|
|
|
Cybernetic Blood Mage  Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361  |
Well something to keep in mind is that almost all of the opponents a normal Runner team is going to face off with are Grunts with a single CM, so in that sense it doesn't really matter whether you are dealing Stun or Physical.
|
 |
 
|
|
Apr 14 2006, 04:38 PM
Post
#27
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 58 Joined: 4-September 03 Member No.: 5,581 |
It matters if the GM cares about body count.
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 14 2006, 06:13 PM
Post
#28
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455 |
Stupid questions...
Is the damage for shock gloves based on either/both being used in a single attack, or can they be "dual wielded"? Do they add net UC hits to their DV? If so, is the extra DV in (e) or normal S? Also, please tell me that shock gloves do replace UC DV, including things like crit strike; that would be just wrong if you got to add 5 (or even 10) S(e) on *top* of a physad troll's damage--you'd kill somebody with S damage in one hit. Slightly less (maybe) stupid question... any reason stun batons can't be dual-wielded? Finally... any rules for replacement batteries for these things? Something more like changing a clip than plugging into a wall? Edit: Yeesh. "weild". I need more sleep at night. |
|
|
|
|
Apr 14 2006, 06:55 PM
Post
#29
|
|||
|
Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
My response was aimed at Edward's example of worrying about dealing damage on both the Physical and Stun Tracks, since Goons only have one track it isn't really an issue in terms of spliting damage. As for the Keeper of Fate caring about the body count, well our group uses the suggestion given about if half the damage was Physical and the damage from the last attack was also Physical (Or Stun that overflowed) then the Goon is straightout dead, otherwise he is simply passed out and/or in need for medical attention to prevent death. If the Keeper of Fate wants to limit the 'body count' then the best way to do it is with both a carrot and the stick. The carrot is bonus pay for not killing the guards, and the stick is the increased heat and rep that mass murderers cause. (Of course something to remember is that sometimes a job requires the 'soft touch' of a Minigun in a crowded mall.) Something else that I've found helps keep the body count down is protraying the NPCs as real people. Security Guards simply do not fight to the death unless they are given no other choice, most people will do their best to protect children, ect. Make the innocent bystanders and opponents more then mere numbers on paper. However, just remember to play fair, if a character is likely to shoot a bystander if they fire without careful aim and thought, then so do your NPCs, and that too will affect their tactics, even in the 2070s, a Security Guard is unlikely to open fire into a crowd without a very, very good reason for doing so. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Apr 14 2006, 07:21 PM
Post
#30
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 29-October 05 Member No.: 7,908 |
Isn't it suggested in the NPC grunt section that they should be considered as having only 1 damage track for both physical and stun? The overlap problem is an issue for PCs, Lts, and special NPCs.
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 14 2006, 09:22 PM
Post
#31
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
As a player, I'd generally use stun to tick off fewer people. Kill a cop, yakuza, or even random innocent, you get someone after you for blood in addition to whatever a corp might want for payback (if they bother with recourses).
On the other hand, if my cover is blown or ident is reveiled and they are alone, I shoot them in the face. |
|
|
|
|
Apr 14 2006, 11:04 PM
Post
#32
|
|||||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
I think what he's trying to point out is that non-lethal weapons *in practice* are noticeably more effective than lethal ones in SR. Given that, it's not too much of a reach to begin wondering if *in fluff/in game,* people are going to have taken notice of that fact and started equipping their characters/goons to reflect this. I've seen situations where police use a less-lethal weapon to knock someone down or otherwise disable them (beanbag round, taser shot, pepper spray, flashbang) when they posed a lethal threat to people around them (guy waving a weapon around with other people nearby, hostage situation, etc), and the arguement for the use of that weapon has been that they were concerned that the suspect would hurt someone if they shot him and didn't kill him right off, but they felt the less-lethal weapon actually gave them a better chance of disabling their target before he could respond. It'd make sense, if the technology has progressed to the extent that the *system* for SR4 indicates (with gel rounds and tasers being noticeably more effective in a gunfight than hardball ammo), that the game world may have begun to respond to this. Imagine the marketing campaigns...
I'm sure there's plenty of people who just want a good old-fashioned lead slug in their gun. But if the nonlethal stuff is so much more effective, and the public is aware of this fact, imagine what it'd do to the whole gun-toting mentality. If I had the option of carrying a less-lethal round in my carry piece that's been shown to disable a target more reliably than a straight-up lethal slug, I'd load it with those in a hot second. A spare magazine of hardball would have it's uses (mostly, in keeping my options open), but the primary load would probably be gel ammunition if it performed as well as SR4 would lead us to believe. edit: fixed quote tags. This post has been edited by Shrike30: Apr 14 2006, 11:06 PM |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Apr 14 2006, 11:45 PM
Post
#33
|
|||||
|
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
That would make the Pythagorean mage very sad. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Apr 15 2006, 01:02 AM
Post
#34
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
my character plays both sides, being a rigger with high ROF weapons, I have the ability to draw lines in the battle field with suppressive fire. (which in his mind is non lethal since every one has the ability to get out of the line of fire while the vindicators wind up). And then once the bio monitors for the team members start fluctuating wildly (ie damage), then the blood bath starts. Other team members have commented that he's like a rock start tha has only has two volume settings, 0 and 11.
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 15 2006, 02:02 AM
Post
#35
|
|
|
Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
I also find that true of my riggers. Options are the power of a runner. Not how many bodies they can stack up.
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 15 2006, 09:57 AM
Post
#36
|
|||||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 18-March 02 From: Plymouth UK. Member No.: 2,408 |
Ok. Fair point. But simple flavor without working outs the odds for maximum damage works just as well. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Apr 15 2006, 11:19 AM
Post
#37
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
I didn’t realise mooks only had one track, still an issue for BBEG and lieutenants. Although with that (unfortunately complicated) rule for mook death you want to be doing only stun.
And like Shrike30 said I do believe that the rules reflect the technology and in a world such as SR where such things are researched the relative take down ability of types of rounds will be known and characters should select accordingly (after considering how much they know about guns and ammunition, and there mentality). At the very least in the case of holdout weapons with stick and shock rounds there would be a easily observed difference, Gel to standard rounds, not to hard to notice Gel to explosive, setting hard to determine And the repercussions of murder (law enforcement, angry friends and relatives) are a purely in character arguments Edward |
|
|
|
|
Apr 17 2006, 05:38 AM
Post
#38
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 15-April 06 Member No.: 8,468 |
Ok... for my defense in the first one I'd the guy was a Troll Sam who had just flattened our Phys Adept Troll in one hit and my gel rounds were bouncing off of him when he directed his attention to me. Didn't mean to kill him that time as we would have gotten paid more if he was alive. Example 2... yeah I was dumb and didn't think about it properly, but then I very rarely use non-lethal force, though thinking about getting some shock gloves so I at least have the option. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Apr 17 2006, 09:45 AM
Post
#39
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
I prefer regular ammo, because it's a dark, dangerous world out there.
I won't switch to gel just because it's more effective. |
|
|
|
|
Apr 17 2006, 03:53 PM
Post
#40
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 137 Joined: 21-February 06 From: Lenexa, Kansas (Yes Kansas, we ain't all hicks y'all.) Member No.: 8,291 |
We've house-ruled the non-lethal weapons quite a bit in our game, so now they aren't more effective than lethal options. We disliked the idea that choosing things like stick and shock, gel rounds, narcoject, and stunballs were the "easy" options since they were both non-lethal and way better. Moreover, we had a hard time accepting that getting tasered vs. getting shot were dramatically different in terms of how likely I was to continue fighting after either happened to me. Now I may be a wuss, but it strikes me that if I got shot OR tasered I would most likely end up writhing around on the ground wondering where it all went wrong. It looks, to my group, that they decided guns and such should be cinematic, while tasers and such should be more realistic. We've just made both cinematic.
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 20 2006, 05:22 AM
Post
#41
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 14-October 05 Member No.: 7,844 |
I've been playing the same character for about 4 years now. I respecced with SR4 were appropriate. My characters has a kill list of at least 350. After rolling so many dice to end someone, I wised up and realized that killing people in Shadowrun is stupid.
My GM was about ready to really lay the law down on me for how high profile running was with her. Hell, I survived quite a few crazy situations. Karma has really saved my ass in the past, and now edge is proving to be a huge help too. A few months before SR4, I decided to go non lethal with tasers, stun rounds, and the like. This has proved to be a lot less painful emotionally, and proved to keep the law off my ass a little better. In conclusion, a high body count sounds like a lot of fun, but in actuality it's really stupid. I'm glad that I'm redeeming my character. |
|
|
|
|
Apr 20 2006, 06:42 AM
Post
#42
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 43 Joined: 18-April 06 From: midwest Member No.: 8,478 |
back in the day.. say... SR1.. i was, admittedly, a body count player. have gun, will slaughter. in the many good years since, i've tapered off the need for my targets to bleed lead. i wont go so far as to say a high body count is stupid... detrimental, perhaps. stupid, no. fits perfectly for a chromed out, beetle fried gunbunny with a penchant to be just as smidge paranoid. "one more dead is one less enemy." yeah i know... it's a completely flawed line of thought, given some examples in posts above. however, we are dealing with in a lifestyle were -most commonly- Morals arent a luxury, they're a handicap.
as for me, currently, i am very accepting of takedown alternatives. how nice is it to Shoot First and ACTUALLY ask questions later if the need be? :D Confushuzz say, "Man with no options may have Op shunned." |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Apr 20 2006, 08:40 AM
Post
#43
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 23-February 04 From: Honolulu, HI Member No.: 6,099 |
I lean towards non-lethal. However with the almost commonplace presence of drones and the like, I find it also important to pack gear I would usually have carried as 'run gear' back in SR 3. Heck even in late SR 3 I started carrying AP/AV rounds as possible.
I also like chemical weapons. |
|
|
|
|
Apr 20 2006, 03:23 PM
Post
#44
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Too bad SR4 really falls off (more like leaps off, head-first, screaming madly) the reality bandwangon when it comes to this sort of thing.
Any body armor that can stop pistol rounds is going to allow the wearer to completely ignore crap like "gel rounds" or "stun rounds". And with ballistic plate inserts, your armor will make you practically taser proof (unless you get nailed in an unarmored spot). I understand the niche those devices fill in the game world, but that doesn't make them any less absurd/silly. Tasers vs. unarmored foes...makes sense. All the other crap, ludicrous. Again, it would be nice if at least one or two of the designers had a clue how some of this stuff works IRL. |
|
|
|
|
Apr 20 2006, 03:27 PM
Post
#45
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
actually the steel plates in several forms of body armor is surprisingly useless against tasers
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 20 2006, 03:36 PM
Post
#46
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
The "cinematic versus realistic" dichotomy is a pretty key realization when reconciling how SR4 game mechanics (are intended to) work. For me, I love realism, but I learned a long time ago that at some point realism must take a backseat to ease of gameplay and effective dramatics. SR has always leaned more towards cinematic gaming but isn't as openly hokey as, say, Feng Shui. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Apr 20 2006, 03:39 PM
Post
#47
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 43 Joined: 18-April 06 From: midwest Member No.: 8,478 |
Ronin, i'm sure, is referring to Ballistic armors using the current SOTA forms of ceramic composite inserts.
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 20 2006, 03:41 PM
Post
#48
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
true
but then needles get through that stuff easily as long as they DON'T directly hit a ceramic plate |
|
|
|
|
Apr 20 2006, 03:48 PM
Post
#49
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 43 Joined: 18-April 06 From: midwest Member No.: 8,478 |
and i completely agree with you on that point, Kremlin, since taser darts puncture. unless you happened to be firing Taser darts manufactured by Nerf.
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 20 2006, 03:48 PM
Post
#50
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Of course they are. But I highly doubt the ballistic armor inserts circa 2070 would be steel. Ceramic would be my best guess. Like what this page says... And here... (see question #11, paragraph 3) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 15th December 2025 - 01:44 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.