Blood spillage, how brutal are you? Options

[TheOneRonin]

Come on guys...you don't seriously think that a taser dart has the velocity to penetrate a 1/2" to 3/4" ceramic plate, do you?

And yes, if you happen to get a lucky shot and miss the ballistic insert, sure. But that's gotta be what...4-5 net hits at least? That is not going to be a common occurrence. Which abstractly means that good body armor should pretty much make you immune to taser hits.

[Kremlin KOA]

some new armors have triet titaniumalloysto replace ceramic

much more expensive, but more effective

[Azralon]

Aaaaabstraaaaact.

Just keep repeating it.

Aaaaaaabstraaaaaaaact.

[TheOneRonin]

Agree with "abstract".

But "abstract" doesn't mean that that a non-magical, non-augmented metahuman can outrun a Ferrari Enzo.

"Abstract" doesn't mean that if I spill my Dasani bottle, the water goes up instead of down.

And "abstract" doesn't mean that a smaller, lighter, slower projectile has a better chance of penetrating a ballistic plate then a larger, faster, heavier projectile.

Just because Shadowrun rules are an abstraction doesn't mean that it's okay to abandon reason, logic, and physics.

[Azralon]

I just posted this elsewhere mere moments ago:

[Gorath]

Hmmm, just to make a new input into the lethal vs. non-lethal discussion.

As i read about minguns. What do you think about a minigun with gel ammunition used for surpressive fire. That knockdown effect could make things very worse for grunts that don't make their dodge... :D

Gorath

[TheOneRonin]

If you are going to suppress, regular ball ammo is better than gel rounds any day.

Gel rounds are 50% more expensive and the "knockdown" effect is suboptimal when compared to the "sucking chest wound" effect of ball ammo.

[James McMurray]

Unless you don't want to kill them. :)

Plus gel round ammo will drop them faster than ball ammo because it does better damage, often against lower armor.

You may not get the same psychological effect as you'd get when the guy explodes into red mist. :)

[Austere Emancipa...]

Why oh why would you use a minigun if you don't want to kill people? That's like using MLRS for crowd control.

Anyhow, M80 ball worked just fine for the Terminator.

[TheOneRonin]

[James McMurray]

Maybe because you want to really hurt them and suppress the area well?

The terminator doesn't live in a world where gel rounds do more damage. ;)

[James McMurray]

[TheOneRonin]

[James McMurray]

I never said I was trained. Heck, I even specified that I was a mook. :)

I totally agree that you may as well play a board game if you're standing in the middle of a bunch of fire because you have a high dodge pool. Either that or a more cinematic game where that actually makes sense. :)

[Waltermandias]

We generally use lethal force for several reasons. First of all, the non-lethal options tend to feel a little munchkiny to us. We've house-ruled them to be less badass, but they still leave a poor taste in our mouths. Now, if a run calls for it (i.e. kidnap this guy) obviously we'll use it. Plus, we have no trouble using them against civilians. We figure that it doesn't matter if non-lethal weapons are overpowered when we are using them against folks with no combat skills whom we could dispatch easily anyway.

Our second reason for using lethal weaponry is to force surrenders. We feel that most cops and security guards are pretty eager to surrender once it becomes clear that they are outgunned and their very lives are on the line. After a few guards get several limbs broken by our bone-laced spinning Capoera death-dwarf and the speedy elf adept of critical strikey goodness, they generally start thinking that discretion is emphatically the better part of valor and lay down their guns. We are always happy to accept a surrender and carry plenty of zip-strips. This sometimes kills people, but more often just leaves a bunch of people in need of medical attention that we presume the corp provides. Or doesn't. We don't really care really as we are Shadowrunners, not good people.

Finally, we use lethal force since we are BAD PEOPLE. We commit crimes for money. Sometimes pretty terrible crimes. We lie, cheat, steal, kidnap, murder, and blow stuff up. People often suffer substantially as a direct result of our actions. Actions we take for the almighty Nuyen. It seems a bit disingenuous to have a character that is willing to do these things, yet strangely holds to a strict no-killing morality.

[James McMurray]

Not morality, belief in the goodness of having fewer people want you dead. :)

[TheOneRonin]

[Piecemeal]

meh, if you use Stun Takedowns during a run with the objective of theft (as an example)... the owner of said yoinked item probably weighs the items theft far above any non-lethality incurred by his/her security contingent. and since 90% or more of the security contingent survives... you do indeed have more enemies to contend with later as they might be part of the recovery team.

six of one. half dozen of the other.
neither is the end all, be all.
use what you want; just be ready to accept the consequences.

[Azralon]

[Waltermandias]

I certainly agree that leaving less bodies around is a good thing, I just feel that using "non-lethal" weapons isn't necessary. In our games, unless someone is an utter hard-ass, he falls down and stays down if he gets hit for any real damage. A security guard staring at 6-8 boxes of physical damage is hurt, and hurt bad. He needs medical attention, but he will probably survive if said attention is administered relatively quickly. In our games it is pretty rare for someone to take more then that in one go, so fatalities are usually avoided. Generally the only people who die are very unlucky people who take above average attacks and roll below average soaks, or fall off tall things, or what have you. And crazy hardcore types that don't surrender when they should. We shrug of the former as an unfortunate necessity of our line of work and the latter as people we would rather have dead than looking for us later anyway. The rest of our opponents are generally left lying on the ground either having surrendered in the place of superior firepower or after having received semi-serious but treatable injuries. In either case we have a low body count without resorting to tasers, gel rounds, and the like.

[hyzmarca]

[Shrike30]

Gel rounds, stick-n-shock, and tasers are all well and good, but they really suck when you find yourself trying to shoot through anything. For that matter, so do explosive rounds. The minute you get someone behind some glass, in a vehicle, or in some other random spot where I can generally rule there's an object between them solid enough to noticeably deflect a bullet, all of those ammo types largely become ineffective. Nothing quite like realizing you're about to get run down by a car, trying to punch off a couple of quick rounds at the driver before you dodge out of the way, and watching them go bang when that EX ammo hits the windshield. Startle the hell outta the driver, probably blow a big hole in the windshield, but a lot of this ammo is specifically designed NOT to penetrate hard surfaces... and I make people aware of that. Regular/APDS ammunition really does have it's place.

[hyzmarca]

Ex Explosive is just as good as APDS for shooting through barriers.

[kigmatzomat]

IMO the "smart" runners, aka the ones who do it professionally as a career vs. the ones who do it because they've got no other choice, tend to be big on flexibility. Gangers do what gangers do well and they really don't take jobs that don't hit their niche. A pro runner should be able to hit multiple job types without blinking. Carrying non-lethal ordinance is just as much a requirement as a good suit. Anyone remember the quote from the Ork Samurai archetype in the original Street Sam Guide? IIRC:

[Kyoto Kid]