 A few more questions/clarifications, Lightning Bolt, monofilament |
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 Apr 13 2006, 04:40 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 96 Joined: 13-April 06 Member No.: 8,459  |
A couple more questions.
First one: Lightning Bolt. The Lightning Bolt description says that the damage is physical. It also says that it's electricity damage (:eek:) which is treated as stun damage, and can incapacitate targets. Which one is it? Or, is it just treated as electricity for conductivity and non-conductive armor upgrades? Second one: Some monofilament stuff. Monofilament wire is pretty badass. But what's up with the monofilament sword? It's pretty much identical to a katana, and the only real difference I can see with it and the regular sword is an additional -1 armor penetration (ignoring availability, cost, etc.). Shouldn't it be better than the other conventional blades? And for monofilament whips, their damage against barriers doesn't seem right to me. It's listed as exactly the same as a normal whip (1), when it was my impression that monowhips pretty much just go right on through stuff. |
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Apr 13 2006, 04:56 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 06 From: San Francisco Member No.: 8,275 |
The damage is stun as opposed to physical, the spell is physically-based instead of mana-based. Different meanings of "physical". As for the monofilament, a katana is pretty sharp, and the reason that it doesn't cut through things is friction on the flat part of the blade. While a "perfectly" sharp monoblade would slice better, there's no help on the blade friction. And I think monfilament whips are weaker than they might appear is because they have negligible weight, so they don't cut very deep. You'd have to loop it around something to cut efficiently, which is hard for something like a barrier. |
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Apr 13 2006, 05:23 PM
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#3
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Actually, lightening bolts do cause physical damage. If you don't beleive me just get struck by lightening. Sicne it isn't easy to get struck by lighening you can simulate the effect by opening up the electricity meter at home and touching both a hot connector hot and ground at the same time.
Lightening bolt is electricity for the purposes of armor resistance and secondary elemental effects. As for monowire. Its magic. Seriously. hat is the only explination for the insane material. |
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Apr 13 2006, 05:27 PM
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#4
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Dumpshock goes around and around on this particular ride every so often. Subjectively solid cases can be, and have been, made for both Physical and Stun. Basically the answer is: "We don't know, please errata/FAQ it FanPro. In the meantime, our group declares it to be ____." |
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Apr 13 2006, 05:35 PM
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#5
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
They are weaker than they might appear because for whatever reason science fiction writers have decided that it's superhard when it really just has a high tensile strength -- not the same thing. Kevlar and Spectra are "stronger than steel", but there's no way you're going to cut through steel with strands of Kevlar, no matter how thin.
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Apr 13 2006, 10:51 PM
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#6
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
monoswords are also 1-handed, as i recall, whereas the katana is 2-handed.
that's the difference. |
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Apr 14 2006, 04:00 AM
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#7
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Target Group: Members Posts: 96 Joined: 13-April 06 Member No.: 8,459 |
Ah, ok. I never noticed that! Thanks for the answers, guys! :)
It wouldn't neccessarily be too hard, if you held the whip by the handle and the balance tip and used it that way, so the balance tip doesn't get in the way. After looking at the barrier stuff again - since the damage against barriers counts toward putting meter wide holes in stuff - I guess it would make sense to have the low DV. If you were trying to just cut through it, it would probably be decently easy. |
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Apr 14 2006, 05:02 AM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,000 Joined: 17-November 05 From: Halifax, Canada Member No.: 7,975 |
One thing to remember about Monofilament wire is that - although it's technically only about a molecule in size and therefore unbeleivably thin, it's still wire. Monofilament wiring does havoc on organic components because it's soft tissue. So, monofilament is good for skin, muscle, bone and even wood or plant matter, but against metal it will bend and even snap it it can't cut through the material's hardness. |
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Apr 14 2006, 12:09 PM
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#9
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
If you start considering real physical factors, then you can chuck this idea right out as well. To quote Cray74 again, a single molecule-thick strand, or even a micron (1/1,000,000th a meter) thick braid, will "snap if you stare at it cross-eyed" -- with a force of less than 0.05 Newtons. |
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Apr 14 2006, 01:21 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
That's the problem with the monofilament whip. It is a plot device, a weapon fueled by "Wouldn't it be neat?". It is one of those cases where you can't start applying too much logic to it, because the whip will then explode.
That's what happens when logic and anti-logic collide. |
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Apr 14 2006, 04:45 PM
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#11
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Target Group: Members Posts: 96 Joined: 13-April 06 Member No.: 8,459 |
I might be wrong, but I remember reading somewhere that it wasn't truely a molocule thin, but only somewhere in the vicinity (if it was, monowire would be completely invisible, instead of just hard to see).
Anyway, the main thing I'm looking at with the barriers thing is that you attack the barrier directly, you're screwed. If you're attacking someone through the barrier, it seems to work alot better. Like if you're attacking a tree with it. A tree has an armor rating of 4, structure rating of 5. A monowhip's AP completely get's through the tree's bonus - I don't see a monowhip being used really like a normal whip, so you'd probably be coming in sideways to the tree with it - so the guy on the otherside doesn't get any additional armor. To me this says that the whip has pretty much gone through the tree. If you're trying to damage that tree normally though, you can't do it. The whip's DV suddenly becomes 1, and that tree is suddenly much harder to damage. I think for my own game, when attacking non-reinforced barriers and the such (and if you can get the object completely inbetween the handle and the balance tip) that you can treat it as regular attack (just like against a normal person), so that tree is toast. |
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Apr 14 2006, 08:53 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 314 Joined: 25-February 06 Member No.: 8,307 |
I agree on both points. I remember in the Street Sam Catalog, that there was a comment about shoelaces being monofilament as well. It's not mono-molecular. Regular whips work by snapping the tip (at the speed of sound). These would work by wrapping around a limb (or other extremity :eek: ) and tension pulling the wire against/through it. |
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Apr 14 2006, 09:26 PM
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#13
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
you, sir, have struck the nail on the head. monowire isn't monomolecular, it's monofilament. |
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Apr 14 2006, 10:52 PM
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#14
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Target Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: 2-April 06 Member No.: 8,425 |
Um... could you dumb that distinction down a tad for me, mfb? Technically, I could have a single filament an inch across, but it's not gonna cut through street sams like a hot knife through butter...
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Apr 14 2006, 10:58 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 314 Joined: 25-February 06 Member No.: 8,307 |
That's exactly the point.
A monofilament can be as fat and un-cutty as a rope. However, theoretically it is very strong. If you make it also very thin, you have a very nice cheese cutter or weapon. The monofilament whip is very thin (like human hair) and very strong (spider silk has more tensile strength than steel, and it breaks easily), so with enough force, "I Can't Believe It's Not Samurai" |
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Apr 14 2006, 11:03 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 199 Joined: 11-September 05 Member No.: 7,729 |
Right, it's a singular, homogenous polymer strand. So's fishing line.
I was always under the impression that monowire's cutting power comes from the fact that the strand is polygonal in cross-section (buckytubes are hexagonal, I think?) and the vertices were of near-molecular thickness (exceedingly "sharp"). A round strand - like the aforementiond fishing line - lacks a definable edge to function as an effective wedge. |
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Apr 14 2006, 11:05 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 314 Joined: 25-February 06 Member No.: 8,307 |
So, like a very thin, long, flexible sword? I hadn't thought of that... if it's a flattened ovate shape, it would cut better, but be even trickier to wield...
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Apr 14 2006, 11:12 PM
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#18
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Assuming that the shadowrun monofilament is made of carbon buckminsterfullerene tubes (this is canon, at least in SR3), then going by the dictionary definition of "filament", a "monofilament whip" should in fact be made out of a single, monomolecular buckytube. But that'd be stupid, so we ignore that. Instead we decide that all "monofilament" really means here is that it is made of monomolecular buckytubes -- a whole fricken lot of them, braided together like a rope.
If it were as thick as a human hair, then at least it would able to withstand some tugging, to the tune of 600 Newtons -- equivalent to a hanging mass of ~61kg. On the other hand, to make a strand as thick as a human hair cut clean through an arm (assuming it's hard enough to actually cut through bone, but that's another problem altogether) you'd have to pull on it pretty damn hard. |
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Apr 14 2006, 11:16 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 137 Joined: 21-February 06 From: Lenexa, Kansas (Yes Kansas, we ain't all hicks y'all.) Member No.: 8,291 |
So what kind of damage would this explosion do? And if I throw my mono-whip at a bad guy and yell "Oh noes! That whip makes no sense for X, Y, and Z reasons!" Will it explode in his hands, thus making a deadly weapon even deadlier? |
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Apr 14 2006, 11:39 PM
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#20
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Target Group: Members Posts: 96 Joined: 13-April 06 Member No.: 8,459 |
I don't think it's like that. If it would have "edges" it would have multiple of them along the strand, so that you wouldn't have to worry about which part of the whip you'd have to attack with. Maybe partially off-topic, but for a nice visual of the whip, I'd suggest checking out Johnny Mnemonic. EDIT: Just found this page that someone wrote up: http://www.intercom.net/user/logan1/engfun4.htm |
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Apr 14 2006, 11:44 PM
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#21
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
No. The explosion wouldn't harm anything. It would simply punch a gigantic hole in the fabric of the universe through which everyone who has even been maimed or killed by monowire will appear miraculously unharmed. |
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Apr 14 2006, 11:46 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 314 Joined: 25-February 06 Member No.: 8,307 |
Maybe multiple edges? I don't know how bucky balls look, but what if the cross section of the whip looked like a star, or a gear? That would give it a number of micro-edges to cut with. |
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Apr 14 2006, 11:48 PM
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#23
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
I've gotten pretty nasty cuts from fishing line getting wrapped around part of my hand. Nothing like fiddling to untangle a loop when some yahoo goes zipping by and snags the line running out to your float with his rudder... I'm glad it was low-test line, because it snapped before it could do more than a small partial avulsion. The thought of losing a big scoop of the the tissue forwards of the "hand" knuckle is really unappealing.
We don't have manuals for monowhips lying around anywhere... for all we know, the spindle in the grip (or your fingertip compartment) has a motor on it to haul the "whip" back real fast once you've lashed it out at something, similar to how the fishing line tried to take a chunk out of me by tugging real hard, real fast, in a really concentrated area. "Round" or "sharp" in shape doesn't really matter when the line you're talking about is that fine... as long as it has the tensile strength to hold together under that much pull, and enough force to pull an edge that thin through the medium you're trying to yank it through, you should be able to do stuff like this. Random Johnny Mneumonic stunts like "flipping" a loop of your whip through a door to scoop out the entire lock isn't gonna cut it... you can't apply force like that. But getting a loop of it around something then drawing it tight? Sure, why not? |
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Apr 14 2006, 11:49 PM
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#24
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Yeah, uhh... Do you want to know all the parts of that page that don't make any sense, or will you settle for simply knowing that it's mostly crap?
The strand itself is the "blade". Buckyballs are, well, balls, they don't have sharp edges.
Stuff like this = minor fleshwounds? Yeah, sure it could. But cut through bone, plastics, let alone metal or any sort of armor?
Because graphite cannot cut through most metals, no matter how much force you apply. You just end up smearing graphite on the metal. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Apr 14 2006, 11:57 PM |
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Apr 14 2006, 11:51 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 314 Joined: 25-February 06 Member No.: 8,307 |
Yeah, I got the impression that the whip in Johnny Mnemonic was powered... maybe a vibro-whip, or with a current running through it. A little more advanced/dangerous than our SR one.
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