Trolz R Stoopuhd, and orks are trouble Options

[Munchkinslayer]

I've been out of the Shadowrun loop for a while, so excuse my ignorance if it's showing. But I remember trolls being mentally challenged, and now in third edition people just 'think' they're a bunch of delberts because of the shape of their pallets. "I'm not a doofus. I have a speach impediment." Has political correctness invaded Shadowrun? Do we have to worry about upsetting non-existent races too?

I also seem to remember that orks were a societal pain the the hiney. I don't see this in the SR3 stuff I've checked out and I think that sucks. It made total since that orks would be a problem. Remember when you were 14 and fully convinced you could kick anybodies ass? Full of piss and vinegar and suffering from testosterone poisoning. Now think about an ork. He reaches physical maturity at about 14 and physical maturity for an ork is like a human power lifter. Add to that the fact that orks as a race are undoubtably pissed off about the fact that they are likely to die from old age before the other races even reach middle age. Think about gangs of young orks prowling the streets. Big, angry, puffed-up and looking to impress their buds, filled with a since of apathy about tomorrow.

Anyhow, is this stuff still an issue in third edition? I don't notice it.

[The White Dwarf]

Not exactly sure what youre getting at. The game stats (int, cha penalty) as well as various supplements (New Seattle) both reflect those races with at least some slant towards your rather colorful description. So yea, that facet of the game is there, perhaps not as explicit as you wrote it however. Did you want an example, or a page reference for it or something?

[White Knight]

Well, I haven't noticed any changes personally.

Trolls: Having a look at my trusty treasury-tag bound copy of SR1 I think the bit that may cover the issue is this (p38)

[kenny26]

i haven't played any other edition of SR but 3rd. so my knowledge here might be somewhat lacking. but here goes:

i think trolls have always had some mental disorders or simply underdeveloped brains (the rules state this black on white by adding a +2 penalty to int). but this penalty can have many forms.
one troll might simply be ilitterate (spelling? doh! this couldn't be more inappropriate...) or and have very little or no education, whilst another troll might simply be 'slow' and not very perceptive, but he could still be well educated.

so trolls are dumb, but they can be dumb in many different senses.

[Abstruse]

You're also feeding into the stereotypes of the race, which FASA first and now FanPro are working against. Trolls are naturally strong and have longer reach, therefore they're usually melee specialists. Orks are less strong, but still obviously suited for combat and thus are typically street samurai or other combat types. Elves are quick and charismatic by nature and therefore are usually either the face, the pistols specialist/shartshooter, the mage (more elementals/spirits), or a combination of those. Dwarves are short and stumpy, but they have high willpower so they're usually riggers and deckers. These are what min/maxers usually play the different races as.

However, FASA and FanPro have been trying to break those stereotypes for a long time and push the game more into role-playing than roll-playing. Therefore, Orks and Trolls esp. (since their penalties generally mean they're just cannon fodder) are still treated that way generally, but the company is going out of its way to show that there are exceptions to every stereotype, esp. when it comes to something like race. So that's why you see an ork decker and a troll mage as the archetypes in the BBB.

The Abstruse One

[John Campbell]

Note that the SR3 metatype descriptions, unlike the ones in previous editions, are written in-character by members of the metatypes in question. Do you think that they're really going to say, "Yeah, most members of my metatype are really dumb and aggressive. I'm just one of the small minority of exceptions, and even as exceptional as I am, I barely meet human average"? Even if that's just the plain truth?

[Munchkinslayer]

Nice point Johnny C! I never even thought of that. Maybe I'm a troll.

SR3 p. 50 says that they have "... speach that sounds flat, uninflected, and therefore 'stupid' to the ears of humans and others." Page 40 says that trolls are "less acute (lower Intelligence) than humans." The Intelligence attribute deals with more than just smartz, it has to do with things like visual acuity, and they chose the words 'less acute' wich leads me to think they are not saying that trolls are a little shy in the brain-bucket. I seem to remember just about every adventure or novel I read made the trolls look like they were pretty dumb. The rule book seems to avoid this.

As for the orks, I seem to remember (and I'm just going on memory here, and admittedly mine ain't so good) the first edition rules pointed out that orks matured quickly and caused some havoc; that the race as a whole had something of a FTW attitude because they new they would grow old and die so quickly. All I see about this in SR3 is on page 47 in the Metahuman Characteristics Table, under Lifespan "35 - 40 years".

Thanks for your input one and all and Abstruse, I like that you know the difference between rollplaying and roleplaying.

[Cray74]

[thunderchild]

[Abstruse]

The troll in Nosferatu seemed like he wasn't a moron. Maybe not a Rhodes scholar, but definately not stupid.

The Abstruse One

[Hot Wheels]

The intell and charisma penalties mean that the average troll or ork still have those problems, but pc's can rise about this putting extra into intell. The part about the speech problem explains how a being with intell of 6 can still sound like he's from Brooklyn. In general the average troll is as dumb as a box of rocks with an intell of 1, 2 if they're lucky. :]

[Cray74]

[Ed_209a]

The troll int penalty might be rationalized using biology.

The Troll metatype has roughly 3-4 times the body volume to have to control and monitor. It might have been easier to borrow CCs from the higher thought processes for control purposes, than actually increasing brain size.

Evolution is based around the motto "just good enough is perfect".

[Thanos007]

Hate sound all PC and everything but I don't allow any kind of intelligents modifier. Up or down. Haven't since 1st ed. For me it seemed like it legitimist racism, because one race was literally smarter than the others. Elves could treat humans poorly because the elven race is generally smarter than the humans. The humans could then turn around and teat the orks and trolls in the same manner with the elves putting them down as well. I think it makes for a much more interesting game if everyone has the same intellectual chances. Plus then the elves really are arrogent snobs and they get to have the bad racial stereotype.

Just for the record and to put everything in context, I am a white hetero male over 21. No real agenda just like to see people treated on there merits as an individual instead of some member of a stereotyped group. You know, like gamers.

Thanos

I'll even go so far as to say that goblinization can cause some small amount of brain damage and that's how all the stereotypes for orks and trolls got started. As most of them are now born it's not really a factor.

[IcyCool]

[phelious fogg]

Just a note, Trolls and Orks have the penalties to mental attributes becasue they werent born that way, Thier body shifts and causes major havok with them. Now at the point you are born as a troll, you probably arent that stupid, but you are alwasy treated like you are so you accept it and dont try to accel, this has happened a lot in human history. Anyways the net result is you get trolls that dont try to be einstiens and thus they arent. -2 int protrays the lack of effort, and or mental changes that create the less acute troll, besides ive never seen a troll in one of my games with less than 3 int.

[Ed_209a]

Racism would be giving one particular metatype a net total significantly above or below the usual.

Most metas get 2-3 net attribute pts and a few neat tricks in exchange for their priority selection. If someone came up with a "uberaryan" metatype that had a natural +1 to all stats, then that would be a problem.

[phelious fogg]

Race: Uberaryan
Priority: E
Racial Advantages: +2 all stats (Including Magic and Essence)
Disadvantages: Nobody likes them, every non-Uberaryan gets 10 racisism points againts uberaryans. Hunted 6 point flaw, really, nobody likes them, they all have little square mustaches, very cliche. The Keeper on the Edge doesnt like them, they arent allowed on the metaplanes.
Other advantage: In fact the only people who like them, is themselves, -4 to all social tests with other uberaryans.

[Ed_209a]

Heh, nobody likes them, but they don't care because they are <trumpet fanfare> Uberaryans!

Awakened fascists united in their destiny to rule the world. (and eliminate a few ethnic groups in the process.)

Back to pseudo-reality:

if it is acceptible that magic works now, then isn't psychoneurological regression also acceptible?

[Velocity]

[GunnerJ]

[Velocity]

[Ed_209a]

Hmm. I like -1 Int, but perhaps -2 is a bit extreme for Trolls.

Lots of Trolls would have an Int of 1, which to me would make them barely functional in society.

I think shifting the average 3-4 range to a 2-3 range gets the point across, without creating a race of morons.

[Cain]

[Velocity]