IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

4 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Dodging grenades
James McMurray
post Apr 16 2006, 08:33 AM
Post #1


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,430
Joined: 10-January 05
From: Fort Worth, Texas
Member No.: 6,957



How does it work? The dodging rules say you get -2 die when dodging a grenade, but the grenade rules themselves never mention dodge at all. So how do you dodge one?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
UndeadPoet
post Apr 16 2006, 09:32 AM
Post #2


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 158
Joined: 10-April 06
Member No.: 8,448



By using the normal dodging rules. :D
Reaction(+combatsense, for adepts or fighter-mages).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Eryk the Red
post Apr 16 2006, 03:06 PM
Post #3


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 633
Joined: 23-February 06
Member No.: 8,301



I'm confused like James. Grenades are resolved differently than other attacks. What's the actual effect of dodging a grenade (since the attack roll is used just to determine where it lands)?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
James McMurray
post Apr 16 2006, 04:46 PM
Post #4


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,430
Joined: 10-January 05
From: Fort Worth, Texas
Member No.: 6,957



Yeah, it's not like you can dodge well wnough to make them miss their target (the ground next to you).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
warrior_allanon
post Apr 16 2006, 05:14 PM
Post #5


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 775
Joined: 31-March 05
From: florida
Member No.: 7,273



unless you can get around a corner so that your in the corners blast shadow. or if on a stairway get below it to be in the blast shadow
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Thanee
post Apr 16 2006, 05:19 PM
Post #6


jacked in
**********

Group: Admin
Posts: 7,804
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 463



QUOTE (Eryk the Red @ Apr 16 2006, 04:06 PM)
Grenades are resolved differently than other attacks. What's the actual effect of dodging a grenade (since the attack roll is used just to determine where it lands)?


This is wrong. The attack roll is also used to stage up the DV.

First you remove scatter, but if there are net hits left afterwards, they add to the DV.

QUOTE
Make a standard ranged attack test using the attacker’s Agility + appropriate combat skill (Throwing Weapons or Heavy Weapons), opposed by the target. If targeting a location, treat this as a Success Test instead.


Dodging only comes into play, when the grenade is aimed at a target. I don't think you should be able to just aim for the location (of the target) instead, if the intention is to damage the target.

Bye
Thanee
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
James McMurray
post Apr 16 2006, 05:19 PM
Post #7


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,430
Joined: 10-January 05
From: Fort Worth, Texas
Member No.: 6,957



That requires movement, not dodging, and still doesn't account for how you compare hits. If they got 50 hits or 1 to make the grenade explode exactly where they wanted doesn't change that it exploded exactly where they wanted, and you're stuck in your spot two inches away.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
UndeadPoet
post Apr 16 2006, 05:24 PM
Post #8


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 158
Joined: 10-April 06
Member No.: 8,448



You all know the rules of Shadowrun are abstract, don't you?
The aim is to make it balanced, not realistic. Of course, Shadowrun is more realistic than other, especially fantasy-oriented, RPGs, but when it comes down to either improve playability or realism: Balance goes first, and that is perfectly fine for me.

For those who are confused about the grenade rules, Thanee is right.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
James McMurray
post Apr 16 2006, 05:24 PM
Post #9


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,430
Joined: 10-January 05
From: Fort Worth, Texas
Member No.: 6,957



Right, but assuming no net hits at all (beyond those needed to reduce scatter) how do you dodge? Dodging rolls can't remove those scatter net hits, and there's no mention on what it takes to successfully dodge the grenade.

We did it so that you just needed more net successes than their non-scatter successes to dodge it, but it made grenades practically worthless. Under that method if I drop an airlinked frag grenade into a sandbox full of kids (reaction 3 body 2) with no net successes beyond those used to reduce scatter to nothing then most of those kids will escape unharmed, while the rest will be killed instantaneously.

That's why I'm hoping there are more official rules somewhere, or an interpretation that works better.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
James McMurray
post Apr 16 2006, 05:26 PM
Post #10


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,430
Joined: 10-January 05
From: Fort Worth, Texas
Member No.: 6,957



Yes, Thanee is right and the rules are abstract, but it still doesn't explain how to dodge them. Are you completely immune to the grenade that landed in your crotch because you got one dodge die? Abstract rules are fine, as long as they're understandable. :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Thanee
post Apr 16 2006, 05:29 PM
Post #11


jacked in
**********

Group: Admin
Posts: 7,804
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 463



Well... you cannot avoid the attack completely, of course. All you can do is reduce the attacker's net hits to 0.

Then scatter is determined (and not reduced in this case), then the grenade explodes where it lands and you take damage, if you are in the blast radius (if no net hits were scored, i.e. the defender rolled as many hits on the defense roll, as the attacker did, then the grenade's base DV is used, reduced by distance and resisted by body+impact).

Bye
Thanee

P.S. And I think, that dodging here does involve movement, otherwise it would make little sense. :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
James McMurray
post Apr 16 2006, 05:34 PM
Post #12


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,430
Joined: 10-January 05
From: Fort Worth, Texas
Member No.: 6,957



It can't involve movement, since it happens on their turn and you only move on yours. It also doesn't make sense for dodge rolls to reduce hits before scatter, as no amount of movement on one (or multiple) targets' parts is going to change the flight of that grenade towards the ground.

That could be an interesting way to do it though: let the guy move himself to accomodate for net hits, as if he were reducing scatter. It would have to count as his movement for the next turn, and would open some other problems (like being able to move when someone fires a grenade at you but not when they throw a rock).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Thanee
post Apr 16 2006, 06:22 PM
Post #13


jacked in
**********

Group: Admin
Posts: 7,804
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 463



Maybe dodging a grenade means making funny faces to screw with the attacker's aim... :D

Of course, you do not really move from the spot (if a map was used), it's just part of the whole abstraction thing. In the simulated reality, you probably jump out of the way, but stuff like that is too complicated to model completely, so they just use the dodge roll to simulate the effect in some manner.

Bye
Thanee
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
James McMurray
post Apr 16 2006, 06:26 PM
Post #14


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,430
Joined: 10-January 05
From: Fort Worth, Texas
Member No.: 6,957



Yes, but which hits do you reduce and can you dodge it complete.? Maybe a helpful Fanpro person will read this. :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Thanee
post Apr 16 2006, 06:38 PM
Post #15


jacked in
**********

Group: Admin
Posts: 7,804
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 463



Already answered in my post four above this (just added a few more clarifications, tho). :)

Bye
Thanee
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
fool
post Apr 16 2006, 07:47 PM
Post #16


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 588
Joined: 27-February 06
Member No.: 8,316



I would like to try out something like for each dodge success you get you reduce the dv by 1 (just like anyother combat if you don't completely dodge.)
Think of it as your ability to curl around yourself into a more protective position (a standing fetal position as much as possible, is going to be more protected than standing spread eagle.)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Big D
post Apr 16 2006, 08:52 PM
Post #17


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 524
Joined: 12-April 06
Member No.: 8,455



I could really use an illustration.

Say Mage A is unloading a MGL-12 on Ganger B, 50m away and out in the open, no cover within 20m. Mage A has A3, skill1+spec(3 total), smartlink/airburst. Ganger B is hopped up and wired and has R6, dodge2+ranged spec (4 total).

Mage A wants to nail Ganger B with a range 0 detonation to maximise damage.

What happens?

Now, later, Face W is pinned down by Yak X, Yak Y, and Yak Z. Fortunately, the yaks don't realize he has Mage A's GL. Face W has A2, skill3+spec(5 total). Yak X has R4, Yak Y has R3, and Yak Z has R2 but dodge 4.

Face W wants the grenade to go off right between the Yaks. His aim point would be 2m from Y and Z and 5m from X.

What happens?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Doubtman
post Apr 16 2006, 09:06 PM
Post #18


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4
Joined: 15-April 06
Member No.: 8,473



If you try to dodge a grenade, the objective is to get as far away from the epicenter of the blast as possible. Here's how I do it.

1. If you try to dodge a incoming grenade, you firstly judge roughly where it's going to land, what is the intended target of the attacker?

2. You try to dodge away from that spot, get as far from it as possible. Every succes would be one meter away from that hotspot, in a designated direction.

3. Than grenade scatters and goes off.

P.S. off course you can target the ground, just to get it past the corner, in front of the guards who are hidding out of sight.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Big D
post Apr 16 2006, 09:20 PM
Post #19


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 524
Joined: 12-April 06
Member No.: 8,455



Running away from it works just fine for me, when it's a normal timed fuse and the target gets 1 IP to get-the-heck-away.

Airbursts, however, don't give you any more time to dodge than a bullet, and unlike a bullet, they don't have to hit you; <1m away is perfectly fine for max damage.

Now, I might be able to see adding R into the soak roll (target hunches down and covers up vital areas when he sees the shooter aiming), but I just can't see the target--any of them--really affecting whether the shooter rolls miss range/direction.

That said, I'd really appreciate anyone's thoughts on how the above situations should be resolved.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
fool
post Apr 16 2006, 09:45 PM
Post #20


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 588
Joined: 27-February 06
Member No.: 8,316



for one thing, in sr3 i ruled that net hits (successes in sr3) could only up damage on one person (i.e. the person you really really want to take out) this helped keep grenades form killin the entire party.
Aside from that you can use the abstract rules to declare that the person moved 1m per net hit or they did a better job of covering vital areas, or a combination of the two. It's kind of like the reflex saving throw in dnd, it doesn't explicitly lay out the mechanism by which it works, but it does give you a chance to survive.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hyzmarca
post Apr 16 2006, 09:48 PM
Post #21


Midnight Toker
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,686
Joined: 4-July 04
From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop
Member No.: 6,456



Maybe grenade dodging works by moving between pieces of shrapnel without touching any.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
fool
post Apr 16 2006, 09:53 PM
Post #22


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 588
Joined: 27-February 06
Member No.: 8,316



like tom bombadill waving his hands over his head to keep the rain from hitting him.
Or perhapes it means turning sideways to offer a thinner profile for shrapnel to hit.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
eidolon
post Apr 16 2006, 11:05 PM
Post #23


ghostrider
********

Group: Retired Admins
Posts: 4,196
Joined: 16-May 04
Member No.: 6,333



QUOTE (James McMurray @ Apr 16 2006, 12:34 PM)
It can't involve movement, since it happens on their turn and you only move on yours.

That's ridiculous. Of course dodging involves "movement". You're ... "dodging".

Unless you've reached inner peace, and perfected the art of "zen dodging", it involves some kind of "movement". Perhaps not "movement" as in "I run 30 yards", but it's physical movement.

Try an exercise. Get together with some friends, and play dodgeball. First, have them throw at you, and you try dodging without moving. Then, allow yourself to dodge normally. Notice the difference?

And yes, the rules for "dodging" have always been an abstraction made in order to balance out the deadly nature of combat. It makes no more or less sense to be able to "dodge" a grenade, than it does to be able to dodge a bullet.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Big D
post Apr 16 2006, 11:40 PM
Post #24


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 524
Joined: 12-April 06
Member No.: 8,455



Well, in the case of a bullet, it's assumed that you're moving around rapidly enough to throw off a gunner's aim. This actually works, especially at hundreds of meters away.

However, the difference between a bullet and a grenade is that the former has to pass through a certain set of coordinates within a certain window of time in order to physically impact someone.

A grenade doesn't really care as much. Per the game mechanics, if it's within a meter, that's good enough.

If I were writing the rules for the mechanic, I would probably allow an actively dodging target (moving at least 5m/turn) to roll defense, but any hits in excess of the attacker's hits would throw the grenade off by 1m each, not the full miss distance.

That said, I didn't write the rules, and I would really like to better understand what they *do* say in this matter.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
eidolon
post Apr 17 2006, 02:20 AM
Post #25


ghostrider
********

Group: Retired Admins
Posts: 4,196
Joined: 16-May 04
Member No.: 6,333



QUOTE (Big D)
Well, in the case of a bullet, it's assumed that you're moving around rapidly enough to throw off a gunner's aim. This actually works, especially at hundreds of meters away.

That assumes two things.

One, that a lot of combat in SR happens at distances of hundreds of meters.

Two, that your target that's "hundreds of meters away" knows you're going to shoot at them.

Neither are likely to occur all that much in SR. It's a balancing mechanic with little to no basis in reality.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

4 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 4th December 2020 - 02:51 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.