Area effect spells at Point Blank Range Options

[jklst14]

If a mage casts a manaball or similar spell at such close range that he is also caught within the spell's area of effect, is the mage affected by his own spell?

I'm inclined to think yes, but we had a discussion in our group about this and I just wanted to see what others thought.

Thanks!

JKL

[Dv84good]

The rule is everything in sight I believe he nose is in sight.

So my question is an Invisible character in LOS?

[fool]

If the mage is astrally perceiving then yes (at -2 d pool I believe) an invisible character is in los.
I would say that not only is his nose visible but so is his cornea as well as the jelly like fluid (I can never remember what its called looks like I need to go back and bone up on my A+P) that fills the eyeball and seperates the retina (the part that actually perceives) and the cornea (where the lens is that focuses your vision). SO definitely a mage can effect himself at point blank range (othermmise he wouldn't be able to use counterspelling on himself) and if he counterspells an area effect spell it counts for everyone in the radius of the spell.

[Dv84good]

I really meant opposing mage when you are not astrally perceiving.

[fool]

if you aren't astrally perceiving and the character is invisible you would only hit him with an elemental combat spell since they can effect targets that aren't in los (another reason to take them.)

[Adarael]

Self in LOS? GM's call. Usually I apply a die pool penalty if the character doesn't wish to hit themself, because if their hands are in the FoV, then they can see themselves.

Invisible? Yes and no. Their invisibility penalty is applied to the die pool for hitting them, like cover. Only if someone 100% cannot be seen are they out of the AoE.

[GrinderTheTroll]

[sandchigger]

[K2Grey]

So what happens if the mage gets cybereyes and a special helmet that obscures the nose from vision?

[Lagomorph]

IIRC, with non elemental combat spells, you already have the option of choosing which aura's are affected and which aren't so you can put your nose's aura on the exclude list and cast all day.

In the case of elemental combat spells, like fireball, put some sunscreen on :)

[Shrike30]

My understanding is that SR4 spells hit *everyone* in the radius. Since you're basically slamming a huge wave of mana down onto everything you can percieve, I'd say that includes yourself. If you want to avoid hitting yourself, cast it somewhat in front of you with a small enough radius to not fry your own brain.

[James McMurray]

If you didn't have line of sight to yourself, tons of spells would stop being castable on yourself.

[sandchigger]

Um, no, James, because you can always look down at your foot and then BAM! line of sight.

[James McMurray]

You're also assuming you can avoid looking at yourself when casting. Casting is not a purely mental action, and so could easily involve hand movements in front of you or something else that would put a piece of your body in front of you. It's pretty hard to be in a combat situation and not see even the tiniest portion of yuorself.

[Shrike30]

I can't look in any direction without seeing part of my nose or eyebrow ridge with at least one of my eyes. Besides, your eyes are inside of your aura, which extends out to what, an inch or two away from your skin?

[fool]

yeah something like that otherwise full body armor would protect from such spells.
Furthermore, If you want to be counterspelling yourself, you have to have los. Makes having los on yourself realy kinda important.
Besides, I still go with you see your vitreous humor (I remembered it last night while doing dishes) and cornea even if your eyes are bugging out the front of your head all chameleon like.

[James McMurray]

And don't forget the handy little fact that it helps curtail piont blank ball spell cheese. :)

[GrinderTheTroll]

Someone refresh my memory about AE magic and cover and visibilty modifiers.

If you did indeed get them for cover/lighting, then I'd offer the caster of PBAE spell a good bonus since they indeed seeing so little of themselves as a target.

[Crusher Bob]

Magic is effected by cover and lighting. This is why cybereyes were such a popular option for mages.

[mfb]

[Azralon]

To use D&D terms, there aren't necessarily any verbal or somatic components to SR spells. That's fluff that you can layer on depending upon your magician's particular style. All that's really required is concentration.

The concentration required for a Force 3 spell isn't usually going to be noticed by your average guy on the street (who'll default to 2 dice when rolling Perception, and therefore can't make the 3 hits needed to spot you staring at your target).

A Force 4 needs only 2 hits to notice, so Average Joe is capable but unlikely to notice/interpret your intense look of concentration as spellcasting.

Force 5 needs only 1 hit to be noticed because you're probably staring holes into your target while an unseen wind ruffles your hair, or everyone nearby feels a strange tingle, or the screams of the damned can be faintly heard, or whatever. Maybe you're muttering and gesturing at that point.

Force 6 or higher doesn't really even require a roll to notice, so who knows how crazy your special effects budget gets at that point. You could be jumping up and down, yelling "I AM CASTING A SPELL AT YOU" while ghostly unicorns fire laser beams at your enemies for all the game mechanics care.

As the rules stand right now, the Centering metamagic technique requires you to spend an additional Free Action while spellcasting (as a Complex Action) to either chant, dance, wiggle your fingers dramatically, or whatnot. Basically whatever you're doing while Centering makes the magic "automatically obvious" just as if you had cast it higher than Force 5.

.... So technically, right now casting is a purely mental action (Centering aside) but for sake of flavor there are verbal/somatic/environmental clues that become more obvious as the Force gets higher and higher.

[James McMurray]

I opt for the 'noticable because of talking and/or gesturing" interpretation over the "noticable because of special effects interpretation." Does it actually say casting is mental, or does it just allow you to add gestures via centering? If you're just adding gestures, those could easily be extra ones above and beyond the normal ones. Although fiction != rules, I can't think of any examples in the few SR books I've read where someone just wills something to happen and it does.

[Kremlin KOA]

it has always said casting was mental

also you can always affect something with a LOSspell tatyou are touching, even if you can't see it

and a magician is always 'touching' himself

[Azralon]

[Crusher Bob]

Also, you can cast a spell while bond and gagged, so spell casting required neither speach nor gestures.

[edit]
Most mages are also often touching their ally spirits as well :D
[/edit]