Online Campaign Rules, To make it flow... Options

[Wounded Ronin]

[Taran]

I mean this in the nicest possible way: have you considered d20 Modern? You don't really seem to like the whole concept of classless character creation. Again, this isn't a slam, but the whole idea of SR's character creation system is that it's possible to build a face who's also a deadly martial artist, or a street sam who loves computers, or a mage who studied to be a doctor. If you really hate that sort of thing, maybe open character creation systems aren't for you.

[James McMurray]

It seems to me that his problem isn't so much that he doesn't like classless systems, it's that the characters he sees tend to be pseudo-cookie cutters. Yeah, street sams can love computers, and mages can be highly trained stealth specialists, but apparently the PCs that come across his desk all have straight sixes in those skills (and a few others). While it is beilevable that characters will diversify, it's hard to believe that everyone who is just enterign the shadows (or at least every PC) is a consummate professional (not just "trained" but "maxed out") in one weapon, stealth, etiquette, and computers.

But don't trust me on that, I'm reading the same stuff you guys are. :)

[Wounded Ronin]

Just one t3h r34l based nitpick:

Unless concealing your weapon is your biggest priority there's no reason per se why the decker would pick Pistols as his one and only sidearm skill and not Rifles or Shotguns.

Conventional theory goes that your first priority in a defensive firearms situation is to use a long arm like a rifle or a shotgun and the pistol is supposed to be backup.

So, it would actually be more "realistic" for the decker's firearm choice to be a carbine, shotgun, or submachinegun than it would be for it to be a pistol unless he specifically wants to be able to carry in "social" situations and this is more important to him than having a better tool in all-out combat situations.

[Kagetenshi]

There is no "maxed out" for skills.

~J

[James McMurray]

There is at character creation.

[frostPDP]

Well, the group of people I'm going to be playing with (hopefully) are a bunch of n00bs with the following personalities added in.

Dude one: The guy who got me into SR, my first GM, and the guy who knows the system best. This means he can definitely min-max it, and has quite a lot of knowledge about how to screw me over. Oh, as if it matters, he has the oddest luck in the world - He has bad real-life luck, but dice love him. Combine odd karma with a guy who can munch the system, and you got yourself a regular problem.

Dude two: Managed to make the "slippery slope" argument work. Stupid GMming in another person's game gave him access to just a little too much cash, and combined with some resource-gathering runs (for example, hitting the local Public Works warehouse for building materials) he managed to build himself a nice little fortress in the barrens. Oh, and he was a physad strong enough at 100 Karma to basically p0wn the local gangs into submission.



And a couple n00bs. So Unrest has said what I'm thinking, except I'm too dense to say - balance is needed, and I theorized, wrongly it appears, that softening things up will work.

And James McMurray has it right on the head; I don't want classless omni-class, I want class-less specifics.

Robin; Your statement about RL military training is great, except for the fact that if an average soldier has a stealth of six, what should an average covert-ops agent have? 8? Just because I don't think they should start with a 6 (innate) doesn't mean they shouldn't start with a 5 (professional) or maybe a 4 (skilled) rating?

Or should every former-soldier be way above the average trained person? If that is the case, wouldn't it make sense to -raise- the minimum starting attribute, so that a shadowrunner might actually survive a fire fight? (Bear in mind; the MJLBB definition of a mercenary is "assault rifles 5, heavy weapons 5, unarmed combat 5, stealth 4," to use combat-centered skills. Furthermore, a coporate security officer has a pistols of 4 (not even professional?) and it takes a very well trained (Karma pool 4 ork, so apparently 80 GK) SWAT team member to get: Rifles 7, Stealth 4 (sneaking 6), Pistols 4, Unarmed combat 4.)

An 80 GK NPC shouldn't be just one step above a 0 GK player, should he? And for the Metroplex Guardsman (I.E. a bit below the average soldier), we have SMG 5, unarmed 4. Nope, no stealth. No secondary weapon. So I'm gonna have to say, based on what little GMming I remember and what little I've gotten back so far, that its outlandish to expect a 6 in 3 categories. You might get a 7 in one, but you would then wind up with 4's in others ;)

That's my reading of it anyway, I could always be wrong.

[Wounded Ronin]

[eidolon]

frost:

I hear what you're saying, and I think some folks are missing it.

Right there in the book, in the skills chapter, there's an explanation of what the numbers "mean". We've all seen it.

I also have a distinct problem with every 'runner in my games being "world class" at half of the things they know how to do. I like them to have to think and put effort into what they do.

There's also the issue of verisimilitude. I like realism in my games. I like a little bit of the "street" grit. If the characters start out with 6s in everything and double digit dice pools to beat, they walk all over all but the most highly trained opposition. Regular corp guards? No sweat, I have an initiative of 29 and I roll 32 dice and his brain meats explode. Next?

It gets old, and it gets lame for the characters to breeze through "regular" jobs without ever being challenged. However, when every character has "innate" skills at everything, the "regular" (read: not Red Sams) opposition is just cannon fodder.

I've realized over the last few games I've run in SR, and through reading posts on DS, that nobody every really pays attention to the skills "equivalents" section. That's fine, but it's not how I like my SR.

My next campaign is likely to have starting skills capped at 4 (3/5) for example, just to get rid of the "I roll dice and win" factor. Not because I "can't challenge them" or anything, but because it's how I like to run the game. It has everything to do with personal preference.

Edit 1
WR posted again while I was typing, and I just saw this which made me think of something else:

[mfb]

yeah, i've basically always ignored the book descriptions of skill level because they're insane. i personally don't judge someone to be 'world class' until around 14 or so. that makes the truly special guys truly special.

[Kremlin KOA]

Frost if your problem is that the entire group are pistoleros

then do the smart thing

Make the corp compound larger, with a 'Sculpted garden' between the front (razorwire top and electric fence) gate and the main building

then have the corpsec guards trained in SMG instead of pistol

Give them SMGs with GV 4, high powered laser sights and underbarrel grenade launchers.

put Electronic mag 3 in their security helmets along with Low light and thermo vision, then flood the compound with IR light (which makes it a brightly lit area only for those with thermo)

the guards engage at 75 meters, and do Simple action AIm, simple action fire burst at TN 2

The PCs can't even shoot on the first initiave pass

add ina dose of Jaz for the guards and they now get 2 initiavde passes on average

THAT ishow you deal with players who are all expert Pistoleros

[SL James]

[hyzmarca]

[James McMurray]

For Dude one: is he the type that will try to ream you just because he can? If so, you may want to find a way to not play with him. If that isn't possible, go over his character with a fine tooth comb before starting, although if the rules-abuse-fu differential is that high it probably won't help. Just be ready to say "no, that doesn't fir the game concept" at the drop of a hat.

For dude two: don't let that character into the game. Starting a 100 karma character in a group with new players is a surefire way to piss those new players off.

Also, try and sit down with the guys and explain to them that if they ull out all the stops it won't be a fun game for the new players who are just trying to learn the system. Maybe they'll catch the hint and go for some fun character concepts instead of the powerhouse ones.

[Kremlin KOA]

or get the services of one of the more skilled rules McGuyvers on this board to go over the char with a fine toothed comb,

and have them tell ya where the char will cause trouble

[Taran]

[hyzmarca]

Most self-defense situations do occur in or near the home and the attacker is usually well known to the defender and commonly well-loved. Long arms are commonly used in self-denfense when available and they do offer some advantages.

Unfortuantly, it is rare to carry them in polite society outside of hunting trips, but that can be changed by government funded social programs if we are lucky.

[Shrapnel]

[Crusher Bob]

The ability to deversify without gimping your character is one of the things I like about BECKS. Giving up 3 karma for parachuting (standard jumps) 1/3 is a much smaller opportunity cost than giving up 2 skill points.

[eidolon]

[hyzmarca]

[eidolon]

You make some good points, up to where you start talking about what Shadowrunners are and what Shadowrunners do. Then you just get into "in my game". All I was saying is that I see what frostPDP was going for, that it seems to jive more with how I view the game world than with what seems to me to be the norm (shadowrunners as leet combat gods), and that maybe people should take that into account when providing advice or criticism.

But thanks for asserting my point. ;)

[frostPDP]

First, a reference to dude 2: I obviously wouldn't allow that character into the game ;) But that player? He keeps me on my toes! But too many starting resources once resulted in a quadrapalegic man with what was basically a mech. I think that was my worst-ever attempt at controlling a player gone haywire. ("Wouldn'tcha know it, the top-secret security place happened to have AV rounds, in case of an attack by a go-gang in a humvee.")



Hyz, you and I agree exactly.

Unfortunately, a starting shadowrunner is rarely more than someone who just finished his tour of duty. I'm willing to argue if, in the SR world, your average soldier hasn't seen combat some time - Or your average corp security/cop, for that matter - but that's one of the amazing things about a Dystopian world. You can always find mooks in the chaos where only the best or the dumb survive.

So your starting runner is, AT BEST, a former spec-ops. Cool! He's about as good as any other spec-ops person, since he's probably a recently-released officer. He might even have been honorably discharged! But they definitely have DNA samples of him (can't get too deeply cut for 'ware without it, right?), and depending on the security clearance your character once had they might even keep a ritual sample.

Furthermore, lets say a book-variety SWAT officer is in fact specialized in just one field. Good for him, wouldn't that mean he's going to be better than your average grunt/shadowrunner at what he's trained to do.

My original GM kind of put it this way to me.
3 - Average civvie with practice.
4 - Average copper with some beat experience.
5 - SWAT team officer, usually experienced.
6 - Experienced, military-grade.
7 - Relatively elite.


Its almost like warning-stars from Grand Theft Auto! LOL Unfortunately, I don't know how they work. I look at it percentage wise; a 25% gap between 3-4 dice is an easier-to-close gap, and the distinction is hardly there. A 25% gap between 9 and 12 dice is quite noticable.

Lets see if I can BEGIN to phrase this right. I'm thinking of ways to either keep it a close gap or a distant gap at the same % difference. A 50% difference between 2 and 4 dice is nowhere near as bad as when your 4-dicer is going up against an 8-dicer. If the numbers get bigger, the gap needs to narrow down or else the percentage starts to become rather screwy; you really can't hope to beat someone with 8 dice to your 4, but you can hope to beat someone with 4 dice to your 2: less successes are possible, and since each die is a seperate variable there are less variables.

So I think that 1 skill point difference may be a fun one to entertain.

If this didn't make sense, its because its 1:45 AM and I've had to deal with not one, but two crazy women today; on top of family issues not to be spoken of, simply referenced vaguely. Sorry!

[Kremlin KOA]

okay so you don't want characters whose backstories include experience as a shadowrunner?

[eidolon]