 Online Campaign Rules, To make it flow... |
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 Apr 19 2006, 06:33 AM
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#76
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Midnight Toker  Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456  |
There is one misconception there. The statistical impact of skill rating does not scale linearly for all tasks. For tasks that require a fixed number of successes the scaling is exponential.
The probability of failing a TN 4 task with skill 3 is 1/8 ; with skill 4 it is 1/16 ; with skill 9 it is 1/512 ; with skill 10 it is 1/1024 If you look at it this way the impact of each extra die in certain tests can be obvious. Of course, the difference appears much smaller if you look at probability of success which is 1- (probability of failure). The probability of success for 9 dice is 511/512 or .9980 ; for 10 dice it is .999 . The reduction in the probability of failure appears increasingly significant with every extra die but the increase in the probability of success appears less significant due to that fact that probability can never be = > 1. With resisted tests it is quite different and I honestly don't feel like calculating example right now because the resisting stats and the resistor's TNs are very important. With damge dealing it is even more difficult due to staging, weapon Damage Code, and the like. The value of a single skill point is very dependant on these factors. In some situations it will be worthless. In others it will be exceptionally useful. Needless to say, the value of a skill point is not linear in this situation, either. This is simply a consequence of using multiple dice. |
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Apr 19 2006, 01:38 PM
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#77
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 279 Joined: 21-March 05 From: Freeport NY Member No.: 7,205 |
Hyz; Granted, as always, that I'm not a very good math person, I recognize that each die is its own probability.
Playing canon rules, you get 1 success per die, tops. So 3 success vrs 4 success could mean a lot. So could, of course, 6 versus 8. And 9 vs 12 is an entire upstate unto itself, assuming somehow you succeeded on all 12 dice. Playing with the modifications I'm used to (May or may not use them in this campaign), now only do you have unlimited successes per die (so that last one die can get up to 36, and on a TN 6 test give you 6 successes), but every time you roll all 6's on a skill (not attribute) your skill rating goes up. With a 3, that's much more likely to happen than a 6, so as long as a PC is using those skills sometimes she'll be improving. But yeah, it still all depends on how I do it. For example, Kremlin; A new PC could be an ex-runner, but that would not make him as good as a fresh-off-the-ranch soldier who just started. If the PC wanted to be a long-standing runner, fine - I'm not going to question how he survived with his 1 firearms skill. Or maybe he even started out at his current rating of 5 - he sure hasn't improved, yet... |
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Apr 19 2006, 02:25 PM
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#78
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Let me see if I understand your system right. If a task is TN 2, and someone rolls a 7, they get 3 successes off that single die?
~J |
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Apr 19 2006, 02:32 PM
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#79
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I'm think he means that you get one additional success for every 6 you exceed the TN by. So, if the TN is 2, you'd need to roll an 8 to get 2 successes, 14 to get 3 successes, etc. At least, that's how I do it in my games.
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Apr 19 2006, 02:40 PM
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#80
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Ah. Well, that's vaguely sane at least.
~J |
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Apr 19 2006, 02:44 PM
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#81
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
It's a bit of a problem in unresisted success tests, like Drain, because it gives you 22.222% more successes on any roll, but no other issues have come up.
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Apr 19 2006, 02:48 PM
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#82
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Yeah. I don't like the idea, but the part I don't like is exactly what it's intended to do rather than an unintended side effect, so that's a matter of personal preference. Among the things it doesn't do is make armored people with non-zero Bodies totally immune to handgun fire, which is what I was worried about.
~J |
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Apr 19 2006, 07:05 PM
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#83
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
Weak! The proper way to fight a battle is to line up with a bunch of your friends, wearing shiny bits of metal and carrying colorful banners, charge into the enemy's similar line, and hit them with chunks of sharpened steel until they're dead or run away.
How about in case of an attack by a drone rigger? It's trivially easy to build a drone that can negotiate personnel spaces and still bounce non-AV assault cannon rounds, say nothing about small-arms fire. (Hell, there's at least one canon available-at-character-generation drone that can do it out of the box.) If your top-secret facilities aren't equipped to cope with a shadowrunning team that has a drone rigger, don't go blaming your players for it. |
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Apr 19 2006, 08:02 PM
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#84
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Target Group: Members Posts: 36 Joined: 19-May 05 Member No.: 7,404 |
If a player comes up with a character like the rigger-mech you described, tell them no. Your the GM. Don't hamstring the rest of the players over one over zealous player. Set the ground rules and waht you are looking for.
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Apr 19 2006, 08:17 PM
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#85
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Definitely. If a Steel Lynx doesn't fit your idea of what the campaign should be (or at least start off as) don't allow it.
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Apr 19 2006, 11:46 PM
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#86
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
You complain about people having too many 6s and yet you introduce this rule to blast low skill levels in the direction of the moon. Then, at the same time, you say that the perfectly cannon perfectly standard 1,000,000 nuyen starting resources is a metagaming death sentence. And apparently secret facilities aren't allowed to store anti-vehicular rounds even though there are plenty of off-the-shelf drones that anyone could deploy against said facility. My head is starting to hurt. Seriously. If you don't want there to be, like, weapons in your campaign, run the journalist one. |
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Apr 20 2006, 02:19 AM
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#87
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 279 Joined: 21-March 05 From: Freeport NY Member No.: 7,205 |
Robin, seriously, be cool, eh?
There's a difference between starting at 6 and getting to 6. I think you would agree with that. If not, I can't help it. I never said much about the 1 million nuyen. Except in rare cases, very few players actually take it because it is understood that the average new runner simply has not had access to those resources. If you have 800K in cyberware, why get a new job now? I also said that I -did- have my facility store AV rounds. My player is the one who didn't like it, and complained to no avail. I agree with you guys. -- Kage; you had it right, the way I've seen it played (But am not sure I will be using this campaign) is that if your TN is 3, and you roll a 7, you get 2 successes on that die. It allows for essentially unlimited success; However, with so many modifiers in play, the average short-range pistol shot tends to have a base TN of 5, at least. That can probably be lowered, but can also be cranked. For something to have a TN of 2, it must be riddiculously easy... But this is not necessarily how this will be played. |
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Apr 20 2006, 02:32 AM
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#88
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
There is your problem. You've been playing a freakin' superhero games.
A 125 BP game goes much smoother without house rules that let well-built characters be immune to everything short of anti-tank weapons. Without this house rule a pistol skill of 6 doesn't go nearly as far and neither does a body of 12. |
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Apr 20 2006, 04:52 AM
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#89
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
or he could have started out with skills of 3-4 in his main skills and have improved over the last couple of years the example guy I gave ya before was someone who is a rich heir who wanted to escape high society believing that chipped skills are as good as the real thing, te only stuff he trained natural was his gun skills my usual cyber chars often have the million, but their backrounds show why it is plausable I gave an example ofhow 100 points is abusable, incidentally I don't use Skillwires onmost of my 125 pt characters... I feel the natural skills are good enough, but at 100 pts it seemed necessary to survive |
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Apr 20 2006, 06:11 AM
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#90
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 279 Joined: 21-March 05 From: Freeport NY Member No.: 7,205 |
Hmm, but on the other hand we've wound up hitting the 'ol D&D syndrome of never hitting a target with a high AC (in this game, TN); or certainly, never hitting it hard.
Perhaps instead of 1 success per die, max, or unlimited success, the maximum # of successes could be the skill rating +1 or 3, whichever is higher? So at 1, you can get 3. At 2, also 3. at 3, it becomes 4, and so on? |
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Apr 20 2006, 07:40 AM
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#91
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
This is a 'feature' of the SR system, not a bug. The real tactics in SR3 involve managing your TNs.
This is why things like cover, visibilty, etc are so important. You improve your odds to suceed in combat by doing things to negate the target number advantages of the other side, like flank their cover (dropping the TN to hit them from, say 10, to a 6) and letting them have it. Also, when facing high shooting TNs, you should spend more actions aiming, and not just firing snapshots. If you've played computer games like Silent Storm or Jagged Alliance, notice how 'snapshots' are really only useful for hitting targets that are close/in the open, but to hit those targets in cover/at long range you have to aim first. This is also why certain fire support builds tote the grenade launcher around, you can get aronud certain cover penalties with air-timed grenades, and lay some for your team. |
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Apr 20 2006, 02:29 PM
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#92
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
The "lay some for your team" is my favorite use of grenades. Thermosmoke can work wonders. Chemical weaponry (and electrical in SR4) is also a great way to spread the penalties around.
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Apr 21 2006, 12:51 AM
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#93
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Well, it's hard to shoot things that are behind cover and that are shooting back. That's the whole entire point of suppressive fire. Maybe after training with a 1911 for half a year you can land your round in the black from 50 feet away from a formal shooting stance. If you're being suppressed by automatic fire that just went out the window. Furthermore, someone who is correctly using cover will present a very small target indeed. It's not strictly speaking "correct" to poke your head up over a wall and take shots from behind it because you're silhouetting. It's more "correct" to use the side of the wall and expose only the tiniest sliver of your eye and head while you take shots. So, if your TNs are high, you damn well shouldn't hit very often. Why are you complaining about skill 6 with your left hand while your use your right hand to try and make cover and smoke and suppression fire not count? |
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Apr 21 2006, 01:04 AM
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#94
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
well, sheesh, just because they have low skill doesn't mean they should miss.
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Apr 21 2006, 01:06 AM
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#95
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
You're so quick to complain about the fundamentals of the game and propose counter rules but it looks like you're not even considering the statistics for an instant. Look at Hyzmarca's analysis. Because you're ignorning statistics you're imagining a problem where one dosen't even exist numerically.
Yes. Starting with 6 in the things that count is efficient use of your points. Getting to 6 in game generally represents a tremendous investment in karma and is therefore something that happens if you were inefficient at chargen. I wouldn't bother to upgrade from something like 4 to something like 6, honestly. I might upgrade from 6 to 7 and beyond because that would be giving me something I can't get in chargen but going from 4 to 6 means that you made a bad decision about where to stick your 4 when clearly what you really needed was a 6.
Uh, in my experiences most sammies take the million especially if they're using the Priorities system. I'm really puzzled by your statement about "very few" players. In any case, what you describe is metagaming, because the Resources aren't an actual money amount. They represent *resources*, which is why it's called "resources". They represent anything a character may have that is helpful, such as contacts and Doc Wagon, not just money spent on cyberwear. And even if someone did have a lot of cyberwear he or she still has to eat. That's like asking why a man with 12 handguns needs to work and get a paycheck. Next.
Oh, OK, good. I'd say then that your player is the silly one for complaining about it. He should be happy that if he survived he can now load AV rounds. Heh, I'd think it would be? "AV rounds! Here comes my free ride! Give it to me, baby! Hand of God, meet Santy Calus!" |
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Apr 21 2006, 07:22 AM
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#96
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 279 Joined: 21-March 05 From: Freeport NY Member No.: 7,205 |
I know :) But resources don't appear out of thin air. Simply saying "Here's 1 million, spend it" is metagaming just as much as saying "taking a 1 million nuyen requires a background storyline." Being as I don't allow shallow-depth characters in a campaign anyway, I tend to make sure my players explain at least their specialized areas. And now, silly stories. One rigger we had was a former air-force pilot who was in a car accident and was heavily injured. This explained his pilot/driving skills, VCR and 3 'ware limbs. He took a "loan" from the mob (I think I worked it out so that he had to pay the mob back for his cyber-limbs, but he got them for cheaper during chargen or something. I forgot, it was like a year ago) to afford this stuff. The "big mech" guy was doing R+D for a corp when an accident more or less crippled him. His project, the mech thing, was shelved; but he fixed up his prototype with his sister's help and began running to pay the bills on their high-rank estate. The mech cost a lot of money and was real strong, and the penalty? A: he was a quadrapalegic so without the mech, he had a motorized wheelchair to go around - and since you can't just stroll through downtown Seattle in a mech without the army getting to you, that's a penalty. B: The thing is really expensive to repair, so damage done to it - and that was a lot - was never really fixed. But every :nuyen:1,000,00 has to come from somewhere. It could be an extensive web of contacts - but the penalty for that is, say the character messes something up on the job, he's a big name so the wounded corp might be able to track him down. It could be a bunch of foci; that's slightly harder to do much with, but not impossible. It could be cyberware earned during time in the army. That's totally fine! But wouldn't the army keep at least a DNA record of its soldiers? And furthermore, why WOULD someone quit the army that just gave them 850K in alphaware? Voulentary retirement? Maybe, and perhaps the "work in the private sector" never materialized in the long run, leading to shadowrunning. Even an honorable discharge has a paper-trail. A dishonorable one? Well, you get the idea. So I really don't think its metagaming - or bad metagaming, anyway - to insist that characters have a background that, yes, might include having cheesed off the local talislegger, or having a police record (after all, there's a good flaw for that), or even having a personal vendetta against Lone-Star (seen it happen, much to my amusement.) |
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Apr 21 2006, 08:39 AM
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#97
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
Frost did you read my earlier link to a char background, I would like to know if you would think that one reasonable for a char with the million
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Apr 21 2006, 10:30 AM
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#98
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i fail to see why spending 30 points in resources has to come with extra penalties, whereas spending 30 points anywhere else doesn't. |
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Apr 21 2006, 11:18 AM
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#99
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
because tech is BAAAAD
and magic is GOOOOOOD :P :eek: :P |
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Apr 21 2006, 06:28 PM
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#100
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
maybe in order to be a full mage, you have to include ten points of mental flaws and a background story that explains how you gained your abilities when you accidentally bumped into Cthulhu at the supermarket. it shattered your sanity forever, but now you can cast fireball.
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