 Autorevolver |
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 Apr 18 2006, 07:30 AM
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#1
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 23-February 04 From: Honolulu, HI Member No.: 6,099  |
So I'm cruising through wikipedia, my original inquiry was on pistols that fire rifle-caliber type rounds, wasn't having too much success with that, as I couldn't figure out a good way to narrow my fields down. So I'm looking through links, heading to the listings for .454 casull, .500 rounds, etc. Since I'm still rather clueless on firearms, it wasn't making much sense to me, though I was getting 'bigger boom' for bigger calibers.
Course then I head over to Trigun listing, since I'm looking at revolvers, and it points me in the direction of a mateba autorevolver, which I also find out is used by Togusa on ghost in the shell too. Anyway, I google it, find a niiiiice looking pic of one, and decided that needs to be my next runner gun. I'm thinking, not so different from the superwarhawk? So the revolver dmg, but instead of SS its SA? The reason I'm posting, beyond just that honeymoon glow of finding a new cool item, was I was wondering what some of our more knowledgeable DS posters could tell me about personal experience with the weapon, if any. Good gun? Better off using a regular SA gun? I also had some secondary questions: Can you use caseless rounds in a revolver? I realize there isn't a cannon companion type book for sr4 out yet, but what would be a reasonable ammo stat for resizing something like a mateba for a .500 s&w? 5 round capacity, but what sorta dmg/etc stats? (from what I gather the mateba wasn't sized for it on its own, but I figure, what the hell) :) |
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Apr 18 2006, 07:50 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
On the second question:
Since the original revolvers where "Cap&Ball" (Loose Powder and a primer cap) I see no problems building a wheelgun using caseless ammo. I only doubt you will get many of the benefits of caseless. |
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Apr 18 2006, 08:48 AM
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#3
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,010 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I'd probably give it a 9M damage code with SA firing rate, but I fully admit to being no expert.
Edit: heavier ammunition was specified, never mind. I based this guess on a Mateba and its standard calibers. ~J |
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Apr 18 2006, 09:36 AM
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#4
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Semiautomatic revolvers are a novelty really. They don't provide a significant advantage over a standard double-action revolver.
As for the firing mode, I never understood why the Warhawk was SS in the first place. There are DAO semiautomatics with heavier and longer trigger pulls than some double action revolvers so the only thing that makes the slightest bit of sense is that the Warhawk is SAO, which doesn't make too much sense. The Warhawk's fireing mode is a game balance issue rather than a mechanics issue. There are three revolvers in the canon companion with a SA firing mode but none of them have a damage code as high as 10M. The slowing rate of fire is the price one pays for higher damage. This also makes little sense due to the fact that one can easily make a 10M SA/BF pistol using the CC rules. |
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Apr 18 2006, 10:13 AM
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#5
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Like hyzmarca says, the Single Shot rate of fire can only reasonably be explained with it being a single action revolver -- that is, it works like in cowboy movies, you have to manually cock the hammer before every shot. The trigger pull only releases the hammer, hence "single action". The reason why even that doesn't make much sense is that single action revolvers are largely extinct, other than for something called cowboy action shooting. Just about all modern revolvers are double action, where depressing the trigger both cocks the hammer and releases it. You can fire a double action revolver plenty fast.
If only you used SR3... Then you could just check Raygun's site and *BOOM*. In SR4, if you aren't using any other house rules for firearms, such a gun would do the exact same damage as any other Heavy Pistol, or else it would do the damage of a Super Warhawk with the same limitation to RoF. |
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Apr 18 2006, 07:07 PM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,353 Joined: 5-June 02 Member No.: 2,840 |
Eh, maybe the Ruger Super Warhawk was marketed towards runners desiring a "cowboy" feel.
The character I'm playing right now carries one (I based him off Malcolm Reynolds from "Firefly," so I figured it fit him well, even though his main weapon is a Savalette Guardian) The Warhawk sorta compensates for the lower firing rate with that 10M damage code. Not a big jump, but still, it's something. |
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Apr 18 2006, 09:59 PM
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#7
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...better jump in SR4 since the Warhawk is rated at 6P (-2 AP).
With a decent pool (say 14 d) it is not inconceivable to push the DV to 9-10P which is pretty hefty damage. Even if it does not penetrate, the target still has to shake off a lot of stun Add EX and DV starts at 8P with I beleive another -1 to the AP. Gel rounds really rock with this weapon. Starting DV is 8S with -2 Str for knockdown. Now take those 3 - 4 hits and the target is resisting more stun than most characters (save for trolls) have on their Stun condition track along with almost automatically getting bowled over (unless again, they are a troll). Yeah the fire rate and ammo cap. leaves something to be desired which is why I have KK4.1 use one in each hand (w/ambidexterity) ala Doc Holladay style. Most of the time it is just to shoot once per action (giving her 12 shots before reloading) but even with splitting her pool, she still has a pretty good chance to get a couple hits, still knock her opponent down and make them suffer modifiers on their actions. |
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Apr 18 2006, 10:04 PM
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#8
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
The closest I've personally been able to get to a Mateba was about a foot, staring at one through a glass case at a gun show. They're nifty-looking guns, and have that novelty of an auto revolver (like the Webley-Fosbery; one of those I've actually held), but it really is just that. A novelty. As has already been said, the Mateba really doesn't accomplish anything that other, cheaper, more readily available revolvers can't accomplish. But it sure does look neat.
Birdy is correct in that cap & ball revolvers didn't use a cartridge case and were thus caseless. But even so, there's a big difference between that and a caseless cartridge (namely how the firearm is loaded). It probably could be accomplished one way or another, but I can't think of any way that it would be beneficial to the user to use caseless ammunition in a revolver. Basically, it would be yet another mostly impractical novelty. As the case itself is what performs the all-important act of sealing the breech, and each breech in the cylinder needs to be easily accessible for reloading the firearm, cased cartridges are especially useful when it comes to rapidly reloading a revolver (through the use of moon clips or speedloaders).
If you're still playing SR3, I would suggest using the stats for the S&W X-Frame revolvers from my site that Aus already posted a link to (an auto revolver should offer no better stats), but jack the weight up about 10% and price up about 40%. Any advantage you would gain from the revolver cocking itself would be lost several times over due to the sheer amount of recoil that has to be dealt with when using a cartridge so powerful. |
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Apr 18 2006, 10:31 PM
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#9
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
I would imagine, given that revolvers are constructed with gaps at either end of the cylinder to allow for rotation (the source of cylinder flash), that you might actually run into problems when using caseless ammunition that could be quite disastrous. Say, cylinder flash from the rear of the cylinder igniting a round in a chamber that's not even lined up with the barrel...
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Apr 18 2006, 11:09 PM
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#10
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
I was thinking that you'd pretty much have to seal the breech side of the cylinder and load the caseless cartridges from the front end, igniting them electronically. Pretty wierd, but I don't see why it couldn't work that way. Of course, I don't see why anyone would want to do it that way, either. Might be a good way to blow off your hand.
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Apr 18 2006, 11:20 PM
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#11
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
Yeah, I personally have issues with the concept of putting my hand in front of slugs that I'm loading into a hot cylinder.
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Apr 19 2006, 12:09 AM
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#12
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Man In The Machine Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,264 Joined: 26-February 02 From: I-495 S Member No.: 1,105 |
Eh. My comment reguarding the Super warhawk has always been that its the true 'big iron' of the pistols. .50 AE, .454 Cat, Redhalk .480 .500 S&W. As compaired to something like the Pred (which in my mind has always been a .45 colt clone).
Yeah, I think once you got past the front load, I wouldent call it too odd. IIRC the caseless ammo is electrically primed, so once you get it in... but then you loose the hammer effect... Meh. |
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Apr 19 2006, 12:25 AM
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#13
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
I don't think the heat would be that big of an issue in a revolver. Anyways, front-end loading worked fairly well for the much greater part of the history of firearms. That said, given the choice, I'd rather not put my hand in front of the cartridge. It's the statistically insignificant occasional mishap I'd be thinking about while doing it.
Yeah. No need for a hammer with electronic priming. |
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Apr 19 2006, 02:00 AM
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#14
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
I really get stressed out when I realize I can't figure out whether my HP is firing 10mm or .45 ACP.
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Apr 19 2006, 02:03 AM
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#15
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,010 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Of course you'd still put the hammer in. If you don't, what's the point? It may be purely ornamental, but it is going to be there.
Or heads will roll. ~J |
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Apr 19 2006, 02:12 AM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 247 Joined: 28-November 04 Member No.: 6,852 |
That really depends on whether the Super Warhawk was based on the Ruger Super Blackhawk, which is single action (and nowhere near being extinct), or the Ruger Super Redhawk, which is double action. Personally, I've allowed both. It's just a matter of personal preference, and price. |
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Apr 19 2006, 02:28 AM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 23-February 04 From: Honolulu, HI Member No.: 6,099 |
Thanks for all the replies. I think for SR4 I'll go with the idea of mateba just cloning the super warhawk stats, with the default 6 shot cylinder. Have to admit those S&W x types look rather nice as well, but there's something about the mateba's barrel aligned with the lower part of the cylinder that appeals to me visually.
I did have another question. Is the HK G38 in the cannon companion likely the SR 'advanced' version of the HK g36 or the HK g36/7 (using Raygun's site for the listings)? I know SR 4 uses the HK xm30, but I think the weapon looks a little silly and plasticky to me. Even some of the extrenal sites on wikipedia that I used to check on the xm30 didn't sell me much on its look. Also :) I do apologize for my focus on the 'look' of a gun, its just that I figure since SR pretty much lumps up everything, gives everything in the same class relatively the same stats, that I may as well go with the one I think my char would look more intimidating carrying. And for some reason the Ares stuff doesn't do it for me. I don't like the Alpha or the revamps of the predator too much, tho I kinda liked the look of the predator 3. |
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Apr 19 2006, 02:42 AM
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#18
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Yeah. From what I understand the G38 is another SR attempt at a modular rifle platform based on a real rifle (like the Steyr AUG-CSL). Being that the G36 is modular like that in reality, it's definitely the inspiration for the G38. I assume the XM30 is supposed to be based on the idea of the XM8, which was itself a very slightly modified G36 (different plastic furniture, better optics; now defunct). The G36/7 on my site is a fictional 7.62x51mm version of the G36. |
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Apr 19 2006, 03:11 AM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 23-February 04 From: Honolulu, HI Member No.: 6,099 |
Woops. Heh the site is so well done I have a hard time telling at first glance which stuff is based on real stuff and which stuff is based on nearly-real stuff :) |
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Apr 19 2006, 03:14 AM
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#20
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Well, I try... :)
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Apr 19 2006, 03:47 AM
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#21
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
Thanks for the links Downloaded images of both the Super Blackhawk S-411N and Super Redhawk KSRH-9. Gives me a pretty good reference for what my character KK 4.1 is packing. For sheer looks I prefer the Blackhawk (always was one for the classical look & that 10.5 in barrel has a definite intimidation factor). For performance & speed however - especially firing 2 weapons in alternating fashion or at the same time - double action would make more sense. |
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Apr 19 2006, 10:37 PM
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#22
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
Darn, raygun beat me to the Webley-Fosbery, automatic revolvers are cute as collectors items but not really usable as weapons. I mean sure point and shoot but the extra bells and whistles are too expensive for a comperable non-revolver.
As for single and double action- my S&W .357 is a double action but I shoot straighter if I treat it like a single action, mannually cocking it for each shot. It takes only a momment, and the differnece is the pull needed for the double action pulls me a little off center. I've had a similar experience with a .38 webley. A semi-auto like a baretta is already cocked after the first shot so it doesn't have that problem. |
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Apr 19 2006, 11:03 PM
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#23
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
That's true for single-action and DA/SA pistols, but with double-action only pistols (like a Beretta 92D/DS), and oddities like the Glock "safe action", the trigger pull still cocks the hammer or striker on subsequent shots. Of course, you can get a double action trigger that's light enough to remove the accuracy problem.
Hence why sane people pick a DA revolver for defense, and why SA revolvers are curiosities -- and almost exclusively US curiosities. |
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Apr 20 2006, 01:20 AM
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#24
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Old Man Jones Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,415 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New York Member No.: 1,699 |
It's a silly idea, but...
Would it be physically be possible to mod a Mateba type autorevolver to fire two-round bursts? -karma |
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Apr 20 2006, 01:33 AM
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#25
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
I don't see why not.
Hmm. A full-auto caseless revolver. Well past "silly" and approaching "regoddamndiculous" at speeds heretofore unknown to man. :) |
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