 SR4: letting PCs respec thier chars as books print, over coming resitance to play |
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 Apr 20 2006, 05:02 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 21-July 05 From: Seattle Member No.: 7,508  |
Yeah, this is how our group does things, too. We're already hoarding our karma and nuyen in breathless anticipation... I just wish we could earn interest on the Karma (the nuyen, yeah, we can invest that. But we want more KARMA!!!!). :spin: |
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Apr 20 2006, 06:03 PM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 565 Joined: 7-January 04 Member No.: 5,965 |
I would say that, if i were running a game and a new book came out with cool toys, those new toys are SOTA. and that means there will be new runs that focus on key peices of ware or weapons, as other corps try to get a copy so they can make a good knockoff.
basicly make them availible in-game, and people can buy them when they can afford them. I would probably stage it so that things became availible over time, rather than all at once. if you get a couple new SOTA items availible in game every game, then you can stretch that tech curve out a ways. make things interesting. and that means runs to grab prototypes can be so much more fun.. get it before it hits the streets. |
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Apr 20 2006, 06:07 PM
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#28
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
The problem arises when you're running a game of SR4 and the stuff that comes out in the new book has been available to the world for 20 years.
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Apr 20 2006, 06:20 PM
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#29
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Example: Arsenal comes out and has boosted reflexes. (remember, I don't know anything, this is just an example) Boosted reflexes have been around for freaking ever. But they're not in SR4.
Would you let a player say: "My character totally would've gotten boosted reflexes instead of wired/synaptic" and just let them swap them out, recalculate essence, and pay/refund the difference in nuyen, and retcon it to say that that's what they had all along? |
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Apr 20 2006, 06:21 PM
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#30
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
I would allow characters to make a limited re-spec to accomodate changes in the core rules. I.E. If your character is built around a set of rules that no longer exist, or were drastically changed, affecting your character's viability. Like, for instance, if I had a decker and we upgraded from SR3 to SR4.
But if Arsenal comes out with new toys (guns, etc), I wouldn't let players retroactively say "my character didn't actually start with a Slivergun, he started with the SOTA self guided rocket launcher of doom". Instead, they've got to find/buy/steal that in game. |
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Apr 20 2006, 06:23 PM
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#31
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
What if the gun he wanted to start with wasn't SOTA?
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Apr 20 2006, 07:28 PM
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#32
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
whether it's SOTA or not, it gives the character something to work towards. why just hand it to the character, when you can make them work for it? what's the upside to just handing out new toys? you lose all kinds of opportunity for rp, character development, etcetera.
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Apr 20 2006, 07:32 PM
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#33
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
The upside is that it makes sense for an established character to have been able to access the things in the game world. It also avoids screwing them over when something more fitting for their concept comes along but they don't use it because they already spent their resources elsewhere.
Besides, nothing is getting handed out, it's getting traded in. And none of the non-SOTA toys are new, they've been around for years. If it works for your group that's cool, my group prefers the other option. |
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Apr 20 2006, 07:33 PM
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#34
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
how does it make sense for to have always had this gear, when they haven't had it in the past? continuity errors rarely make sense.
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Apr 20 2006, 07:35 PM
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#35
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
What if it's a character that had boosted reflexes in SR3, got converted to SR4 and swapped out for wired, since that's all their was, then when Arsenal comes back and reintroduces them, do "two wrongs make a right?"
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Apr 20 2006, 07:38 PM
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#36
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
no comment. i don't anticipate encountering such issues, myself.
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Apr 20 2006, 07:47 PM
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#37
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I would rather do a handwave that says "all those bullets you fired before were from gun X" then screw a player out of a gun that always existed, just not in an available rules form. |
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Apr 20 2006, 07:49 PM
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#38
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Target Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 20-April 06 Member No.: 8,490 |
ive noticed a few people say "you cant do blah blah blah in real life"...that is an invalid argument. This is exactly the opposite. a game. I dont mean to be childish about it but you cant shoot fireballs in real life either. and combat doesnt happen in increments of 3 seconds....
This game has made me find a new hatred for people, GM's have this rediculous power trip. People can do whatever they want, thats the point of tabletop gaming. Why would anyone want to play a game where they can't do anything they want just because their GM is a nazi. I mean everyone says the point of the game is to have fun. Is it less for for the GM if someone respecs their character?? if your answer is yes than you have some serious control issues you need to get looked at. Is it MORE fun for someone to be able make and play their character how they want as long as they are not hindering others peoples fun and not abusing the rules in a negative way? hell yes. now you might argue, well, respecing your char IS abusing the rules, but im sorry the answer to that is still no. There is no abuse unless you are somehow getting a rediculously unfair advantage over other players. If everyone is allowed to respec then no one has an advantage.... this might seem like a pointless rant from some random forum newb but the things people were saying just struck a bad chord...sorry. |
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Apr 20 2006, 07:51 PM
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#39
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Sorry, due to a fundamental rule of internet debates, you lost as soon as you used the word nazi. ;)
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Apr 20 2006, 07:57 PM
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#40
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
how is the character screwed out of having the gun? do they lack money to buy it? again--something to work towards.
malarky. as a GM, i derive my enjoyment of the game by making the players work hard for their rewards, both in-game (gear, karma) and out-of-game (roleplaying, character development). it's not control issues, it's a desire to pit my creations against other players and see how well they fare. handing out freebies to characters ruins my fun because it means i'm now short a plot hook or a point of character development. |
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Apr 20 2006, 07:58 PM
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#41
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Your point is appreciated, chewy, and I think many of the people in favor of respecing would agree with you.
Bear in mind, however, that for many people/groups (not just GMs) the verisimilitude is very important to their enjoyment of the game. Massive retconning can literally wreck the game for some people, as it can destroy the illusion that the story in the game is "real." (maybe I should add a few extra sets of quotes around "real", but I think you get my point) Obviously, respecing is something that some groups will be fine with and some won't. I think the only real issue that we can hope to achieve something resembling consensus on is how to handle it when the group is split on whether it's a good idea. Personally, I feel like you should probably only do the respecing thing if the whole group is cool with it. But this is one of those threads where the "YMMV" is implicit at the end of every post. |
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Apr 20 2006, 08:01 PM
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#42
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
They're screwed because they specialized in a different gun because it's what was there at the time. |
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Apr 20 2006, 08:02 PM
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#43
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
so re-specialize.
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Apr 20 2006, 08:09 PM
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#44
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Unless I'm mistaken you can't respecialize in SR4. I could be wrong about that.
But there are other things that could be thematically appropriate to a character besides a gun. Older cyberware fits better into the idea of an older runner, but may not have been put into SR4 because in 2070 its obsolete. A specific spell or centering skill may fit more. My point is not that soeone can't have a gun, it's that there are things that exist in the world that don't exist inthe game yet, and having those be unavailable simply because they don't exist in rule form strikes me and my group as wrong. Like I said, it works for your group and that's fine. |
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Apr 20 2006, 08:16 PM
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#45
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
*shrug* i guess. personally, i would just port the weapon over on my own, and then use the official stats once they're published. it's more consistent, which is something i value.
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Apr 20 2006, 08:41 PM
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#46
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Well. If the new gear is not essential, the PC may aquire it ingame. If the new gear is not SOTA and required or nearly so because of new rules, any char affected might even get it free.
If you at all cost must roleplay the rulechange, make it so that the char has said equipment and it is freshly broken (not with implants). |
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Apr 20 2006, 10:16 PM
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#47
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
That's *exactly* the kind of think I'm talking about. Another good example might be when ... durr, was it Matrix 2.0 that made the huge change from "tinkertoy model haxx0r mazes" to "hosts?" There's an enormous amount of stuff involved in something like that which a character doesn't have access to until the book comes out, but when it does, the world goes through this mysterious, instantaneous change. Having a player update a character so it can basically do what it used to, just under the rules we're playing with now that the new book is out is fine by me. Having him go "I don't like how decking works anymore, I'm gonna be a sammie," would be a situation that calls for a new character, not an adjustment to the old one. Another example (and the one I used before) was SR3, prior to the magic book coming out. Physads used to be able to barf up 20 karma and get another power point. After the magic book, they were expected to Initiate instead, as the "20 karma" rule was really a stopgap measure meant to allow them to advance beyond 6 points worth of abilities during the pre-book time. A respec in that situation would involve saying "okay, you've got all that karma back, go ahead and put it towards initiating." I'm not one for crippling characters because the rules changed on them, or keeping old rules "grandfathered" in because the character is old. But if you're going to hand me a new character after a book comes out, it'd better be a new character. |
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Apr 20 2006, 10:21 PM
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#48
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
okay. i don't use the psuedo-word "respec" that way. i view what you're talking about as simply adapting to new rules.
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Apr 20 2006, 11:20 PM
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#49
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
Fair enough. :)
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Apr 20 2006, 11:26 PM
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#50
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i've done that. however, i wouldn't allow the adept to pick up different powers, and i don't think i'd allow the adept to pick new powers--in other words, the adept could only initiate as many times as he'd bought a new power point. that will leave him a nice chunk of karma afterwards, which he's free to use to initiate in-game. |
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