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> Movement Adept
Dissonance
post Apr 20 2006, 07:18 AM
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Okay, while reading the 'Character Changing' thread, I noticed the idea of a running adept. And, well, I can't help but admit I've always been interested in playing such a character.

That is, some kind of character devoted to the concept of being able to move the hell all over the place without using levitate or spirit movement.

Would a so-called movement adept be really feasable and useful in an SR team? What would be the best complementary skills/powers for that kind of character?

Sometimes, you just wanna be a straight-up ninja and, y'know. Flip off of walls and shit. Do stuff that warrants having theme music.
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UndeadPoet
post Apr 20 2006, 08:10 AM
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edit: Hey, you edited that "without using levitate or spirit movement." in later, didn't you? ^^

Naturally, a troll would be best and a dwarf worst, because of the movement speed.
Forget about the adept idea - make a mystic adept. First, summon and bind a spirit that sustains its movement-force on you. My ape shaman nearly spit his heart out to bind a force 11 spirit of men, but it is worth it now.
Second, cast levitation on yourself, maybe use a sustaining focus on a low level(3 on chargen possible) and cast the spell into it. Ask your GM to allow it to be filled on the beginning(or during some downtime when your edge is full and will be refilled when the next action goes on), then use all your edge on the spell, first point to add edge die on the skill+attribute roll and to reroll 6s. Hope you already got 3 "normal" successes. If not, does not matter too much. Use the remaining edge not to reroll the normal skill+ability die, since successes you roll with them cap at 3, the force of the spell, unlike edge successes. Just roll your edge die again and again(hope you got at least 3, best if 4 or 5) and do not forget to reroll 6s.
With a netto of 4 successes, you will be at 12 metres per round, just a bit faster than your normal walking speed, so, fine. Combined with a force 6+ movement power - evil. You can even use levitation movement if you are not reaching the point where you want to go in your combat phase, but do not want to spend a free action on running. Just levitate there.
Although it is a levitation spell, so you can still use it to let it look like you are running very fast, like in Tiger&Dragon or Hero(<---- Jet Li!) when those crazy asians are running through the air.
Oh, yeah, or let it look like you are running on walls.
That's pretty much it.

Costs so far: 3 GP for levitation, 3 GP for binding the sustaining focus, 3 GP for its cost(15000 nuyen), bound spirit X GP(X=as many services as you want, force=your magic rating) or, if you want to summon a more powerful spirit, buy the materials for the spirit(500xforce) and summon it during game. Try to convince your GM of being able to use your full edge both in the summoning and binding process. :D
If you know he won't let you, just go with the bound spirit on start choice. Also pick yourself another "buff" spell for the spirit to sustain on you, since on force 6 it can learn 2 optional powers - movement+a spell of your arsenal. Increase reflexes for your killer ninja, maybe.
So, costs total: 10GP+, 13GP+ with increased reflexes.

Let's see, with a force 6 spirit, you get:
Walk speed: 60 metres per round/ 15 metres per initiative phase(when having 4 of those)
Run speed: 150 metres per round/ 37,5 metres per initiative phase
Levitaton speed(4 netto successes): 72 metres per round/ 18 metres per initiative phase

Grenades are not a problem. No matter how well they are targeted, you walk out of them with ease. To evade a perfectly targeted AP rocket, you even have to use levitation speed. Wow. Watch your team going down, while you peacefully stride away. :(

QUOTE
Would a so-called movement adept be really feasable and useful in an SR team?

Useful, well... For the team itself, not exactly. But it's just 13(+) GP, other people maybe have one attribute point more than you and a skill point, but that should not bother you.
You can cross almost any obstacle in game by using levitation. You can run after a damn motorcycle, blink at the surprised victim and kick him off his bike(that's right, go for some melee power. You are expected to by everyone in your group).
Pump yourself up with even more spirit-sustaining power. Maybe increase intuition+reaction for a hell of an initiative rating, or increase agility for hitting better, or increase strength for packing an even harder punch. Do not go too far, remember the nasty question "Wow, how did you get so strong?" you might get asked by the gunbunnies.

QUOTE
What would be the best complementary skills/powers for that kind of character?

Though I do not know the translation of "complementary", I think you want to know what fits the concept. :D
Well, melee is, as I already said, a must. You are expected to fight like Jet Li and Jackie Chan.
Athletics(Gymnastics) for funny stunts. Usual combat skills.
Forget about the great leap adept power. With my ape shaman, I jumped 6 metres high last session, not yet tried how wide he could. Oh, but get that adept power called... I will try to translate... "Parry projectile?" That one you can fling slow moving projectiles out of the air. What's cooler than the enemy throwing a shuriken at your chummers and you jump in, blurring because of your speed and catching the shuriken with your fingers? Critical Strike 6 if you want to smash walls and vehicles you are running after. Just assuming you have strength 5, boosted with spirit-sustaining-technique or not, that's 9 damage you are looking at. Take aim for 13 damage and that Yamaha Rapier is history. Uh oh, I have to think of Advent Children for some reason. I mean, bikes, lightning-fast and flying people...
Other than that, since you like social abilities, go for them, and do not forget to boost your charisma with your humble sustaining-spirit-servants. Decide yourself how far you want to go.

From game experience I can assure you: If you move eleven times faster than the whole world, life is getting much easier.
"Sir, she is escaping!"
"Hunt her down, then, you lazy smacktard?"
"Sir, do we get permission to use fighter jets?"
"It's just a single woman without any vehicle!"
"Yes, sir, but she is as fast as a fighter jet and winning ground as we speak..."

And you indeed need a theme for this character, as well as the knowledge skill "posing" at 7. Aptitude(posing) will do fine. Also see if you can invest a 3/4 power point into "Improved Physical Ability(Posing)".
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Voran
post Apr 20 2006, 08:25 AM
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Man, could you imagine sneezing while moving that fast? Or getting an ill-timed cramp? Ow, road rash.
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UndeadPoet
post Apr 20 2006, 08:27 AM
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In another thread people agreed that the spirit movement power abstracted speed. If you would crush into a wall, you would just get the normal damage from running into it with your usual speed, also you do not suffer control penalties for moving so damn fast. Plain magic, I suppose.
Also your damage is not increased when you run at this insane speed and clap someone with whatever weapon you carry. Handling it this way makes it easier.
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SL James
post Apr 20 2006, 10:26 AM
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A mobility adept? Nah... They're useless.

Especially female adepts.

(Note that in the archive of the page in the last link, Race jumps from one moving vehicle to another during combat.)
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UndeadPoet
post Apr 20 2006, 10:48 AM
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Sadly, I have a certain dislike for RPG-fanfiction. Feels like you are reading an action movie, and in this case I prefer James Bond(watching, though). When reading, I want to learn something. :rotate:

Nice characters. In SR3 you could not make use of the spirit's movement power, but still, those adepts did a nice job.
In SR4 a mystic adept pays less for the abilites of a normal "mobility" adept and gains much more... I mean, you do not have to jump from car to car, you just freaking fly above the scene and blow your opponent's vehicles up with stick-n'-shock.

...duh, I have to admit, I read the last link. Horrible style(in my opinion, which is just worth as much as anyone else's, and which hardly will be shared on these forums), from all participants, as I expected. Cool stunt.
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NightHaunter
post Apr 20 2006, 01:09 PM
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Horse Shamen Adepts, could buy the Movement(Self Only) Critter Power in 3rd Ed. So why not in 4th Edition as well.
That would speed you up.
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UndeadPoet
post Apr 20 2006, 01:16 PM
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Yeah, right. You mean it would stack with the spirit's power? Insane idea, but if it worked... :spin: <- the time this smiley needs to rotate one round is the same time a horse shaman initiate, levitation- and spiritboosted, needs to fly around the world.
Would he need a license for flying at such an insane speed? Probably, but since he is faster than bullets, noone could harm him. Lasers, maybe. But I think if he spends a bit of edge on his levitation cast, he will let the lightspeed far behind him.
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NightHaunter
post Apr 20 2006, 01:37 PM
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I would probably limit the Metamagic movement to running(galloping) only.
It would make more sense.
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UndeadPoet
post Apr 20 2006, 02:32 PM
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Whenever I hear "horse shaman" now, I will think of a strange guy galloping his way to victory through the barrens of seattle.
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stevebugge
post Apr 20 2006, 03:00 PM
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QUOTE (UndeadPoet)
Whenever I hear "horse shaman" now, I will think of a strange guy galloping his way to victory through the barrens of seattle.

While clopping a coconut shell together
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NightHaunter
post Apr 20 2006, 03:03 PM
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QUOTE (stevebugge)
QUOTE (UndeadPoet @ Apr 20 2006, 06:32 AM)
Whenever I hear "horse shaman" now, I will think of a strange guy galloping his way to victory through the barrens of seattle.

While clopping a coconut shell together

In full Chainmail, complete with oversized shield and minstrels.
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UndeadPoet
post Apr 20 2006, 03:20 PM
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Anyway, more about the adept powers that could be used.
Adrenalinkick(dexterity) could work fine, if you are not already pumped up through spirits, spells or 'ware. Great Leap is indeed a good choice if you want to jump like... like some superhero that can jump high and do not want to levitate(which is way cooler). Also maybe improved skill on jumping, gymnastics, etc..
Still, movement from spirits+levitation is the way cheaper, cooler and more versatile method.
Until an adept can reach a jumping distance(high) of 6 metres, he has to have his great leap on level 2X...
While the mystic adept just needs 2 successes on his jumping test. Or no success at all and just use his levitation.
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Shrike30
post Apr 20 2006, 05:35 PM
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Of course, a banishing, serious ward, or a well-placed manabolt into the mystic adepts spirit can completely ruin this particular stunt. The adept is self-contained.
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SL James
post Apr 20 2006, 05:59 PM
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QUOTE (UndeadPoet @ Apr 20 2006, 04:48 AM)
Sadly, I have a certain dislike for RPG-fanfiction.

Well, luckily several other people on DS (30+? 40+?) seem to disagree with you about Rooftops.
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UndeadPoet
post Apr 20 2006, 06:03 PM
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QUOTE (Shrike30)
Of course, a banishing, serious ward, or a well-placed manabolt into the mystic adepts spirit can completely ruin this particular stunt.  The adept is self-contained.

The tricky part about banishing is that spirits have the potential to become way more mighty than any mage can. The spirit of my ape shaman is force 11(told you the story of spitting his heart out), letting a force 22 spell resist banishing with 33 die. That's just not the level of a (meta)human mage. They hardly get above 10 die, and if they do... Well, on average, the resisting spell gets 11 successes. Did I mention the funny drain of 9P?
Even a force 6 spirit has 18 resisting-die with its spells when cast at maximum force. At least my shaman, who has great counterspelling skills(12 die), would not dare to touch such a spell. It is much easier to get rid of the person itself, anyway, eh? Not many people have 18+ die for their spell resistance.
By the way, I forgot we talked about the movement power. Can not be dispelled, anyway.
And, killing the spirit... Show me the mage who would undergo a travel on the metaplanes to find a force 6+ spirit sustaining a spell/power on a person. Though the metaplanes are not yet implemented in SR4, yet, in SR3 a metalplanar travel with a difficulty of 6 was more than any magical character I have ever seen would have done in order to achieve such a meaningless aim(meaningless considering the alternatives).
Go ahead and just freaking kill the mister I-run-as-fast-as-fighter-jets! Since we play shadowrun, a more realistic roleplaying game, a bullet in the head is the easiest way to eliminate even someone with hundreds of karma.

I admit, though, that the levitation could be banished. Not easy if you spend your edge casting it, but very low drain(2? 3?) when dispelling it, and just 9 die to resist. It takes a while, but since you know this guy depends on his levitation, it could be a good idea to banish it from him.
(Either way... If I were to defeat this movement guy, I would just snipe him. Manabolt or something.)
In direct combat, the movement adept is not as strong as some people might think. Yes, he is fast, but he does not run faster than bullets. Yes, he can dodge explosions, but since his speed is not "real" speed, he does not get boni on evading melee or ranged attacks. And people still get their free attacks when he wants to leave their range... Three gangers around him and that's it with movement tricks.

@SL-James: And I perfectly respect that. Just not my piece of the cake. :twirl:
As I said, my opinion is not worth more than theirs.
It does not mean they are right because of their number, though. I am not, either.
Just opinions... Can't be right or wrong, because everyone has his own view.
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mfb
post Apr 20 2006, 07:12 PM
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*headscratch* when did liking or disliking anything come into this? the story and postings are good examples of what a movement adept can accomplish, especially since all of them were actually rolled out in-game. whether a person enjoys reading them or not is irrelevant.

QUOTE (UndeadPoet)
(Either way... If I were to defeat this movement guy, I would just snipe him. Manabolt or something.)

vulnerability to being sniped is hardly a weakness unique to movement adepts. why fight anyone if you can just snipe them instead?

QUOTE (UndeadPoet)
In direct combat, the movement adept is not as strong as some people might think. Yes, he is fast, but he does not run faster than bullets. Yes, he can dodge explosions, but since his speed is not "real" speed, he does not get boni on evading melee or ranged attacks.

having played a movement adept in several combat scenarios, i have to disagree. being able to move just about anywhere means you're able to take cover where other people wouldn't be able to. not to mention, you can just about always grab a "superior position" modifier.

QUOTE (UndeadPoet)
And people still get their free attacks when he wants to leave their range... Three gangers around him and that's it with movement tricks.

three gangers around any character is often enough to take them down. the nice thing about a movement adept is, it's pretty hard to get surrounded in the first place.
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Dissonance
post Apr 20 2006, 07:26 PM
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And, er, no. The "Without Levitate Or Spirit Movement" part was there from the start.

The reason why I don't really want either?

_ANYBODY_ with levitate or spirit movement is going to be a three-dimensional goku movement type. I'm looking more for a Wuxia Exaggerated-But-Still-Slightly-Feasable type. Not DBZ.
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mfb
post Apr 20 2006, 07:30 PM
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convert wallrunning and gliding from SOTA:64. one allows you to run on walls for (Magic) meters, the other allows you to run on clotheslines, thin tree brances, etcetera for (Magic) meters. 1pp each.
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UndeadPoet
post Apr 20 2006, 07:35 PM
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Nice to hear from an experienced player. I have just played 2 runs so far with my movement adept(okay, he is not an adept, but who cares. He can move around like mad, that should qualify).
QUOTE
vulnerability to being sniped is hardly a weakness unique to movement adepts. why fight anyone if you can just snipe them instead?

Did I say anything against sniping being one of the best methods to kill someone? :eek:
I think not.
It just depends on the character and the possibilites.
QUOTE
being able to move just about anywhere means you're able to take cover where other people wouldn't be able to.

True.
QUOTE
not to mention, you can just about always grab a "superior position" modifier.

Can't see that happening, except if your gamemaster grants this modifier for levitating in front of/above the opponent.
QUOTE
the nice thing about a movement adept is, it's pretty hard to get surrounded in the first place.

That's right, but you do not usually know who and where your enemies are. If you are sitting in the bar and the three thugs show up in your back, not much to do.
But it is easier to avoid such situations.

@Dissonance: I see, doh!
If you get movement force 2 or 3 on yourself, you are not too "uber". ;)
mfb's idea to convert adept powers is good. But wasn't gliding cheaper, back in those days?
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mfb
post Apr 20 2006, 07:44 PM
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QUOTE (UndeadPoet)
Did I say anything against sniping being one of the best methods to kill someone?

well, you kinda did. you brought it up as the method you'd use against a movement adept, in a thread about whether or not movement adepts are a viable concept. if you didn't intend to present this as a specific vulnerability of movement adepts, you might have said so; the thread is looking specifically at movement adepts, so anything not related to them ought probably be noted as such, or people are going to assume it is specifically related.

QUOTE (UndeadPoet)
Can't see that happening, except if your gamemaster grants this modifier for levitating in front of/above the opponent.

levitating in front of/above the opponent? no, that just leaves you open for a shot to the nuts. using your levitation creatively, coming at the opponent from an unexpected angle? yes, i'd give the superior position mod. i do the same thing for movement adepts. Race, for instance, once ran around the outside of a car to attack someone on the other side of it; the GM granted her the superior position mod. i think she also got to roll for surprise.

QUOTE (UndeadPoet)
That's right, but you do not usually know who and where your enemies are. If you are sitting in the bar and the three thugs show up in your back, not much to do.

as with sniping, this is not a weakness specific to movement adepts. anybody who gets surprised is going to be in trouble. when a movement adept is not surprised, however, it's very difficult to make them fight at a disadvantage.
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SL James
post Apr 20 2006, 07:59 PM
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QUOTE (mfb @ Apr 20 2006, 01:44 PM)
Race, for instance, once ran around the outside of a car to attack someone on the other side of it; the GM granted her the superior position mod. i think she also got to roll for surprise.

Yes, she did. If I still have the page saved somewhere, I'll re-up it, because his response (as it were) was comedy gold. Then she broke him in half like a toothpick.
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UndeadPoet
post Apr 20 2006, 08:02 PM
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QUOTE
you brought it up as the method you'd use against a movement adept, in a thread about whether or not movement adepts are a viable concept.

Oh, then check out the post mine was related to. I even quoted her/him(sorry, not sure), missed that?
The choice is - either spend several rounds probably in the end succeeding to banish the adept's levitate, or simply sniping him. Not a weakness of movement adept in particular; I just wanted to prove that getting his spells banished isn't a weakness, either, but a weakness to bullets still exists, since he is not a god. :)


QUOTE
when a movement adept is not surprised, however, it's very difficult to make them fight at a disadvantage.

Yep. Being surprised is, as you said, by no means a weakness of movement adepts contradictory to other character concepts. But I just wanted to state that this ability of him does not save him in every situation.
You relate to this one sentence in the first post, but I did not... That is why you got confused, I think.

Running around the car to surprise your opponent... Good plan. I would not beg my gamemaster to grant me the better position modifier, but if yours did give it out on herself/himself, that's cool.
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mfb
post Apr 20 2006, 08:11 PM
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i'm discussing what the original poster asked about, rather than discussing what they specifically didn't want to do, yes. and, yes, your posts are fairly confusing to me, since you're doing the exact opposite.
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Dissonance
post Apr 20 2006, 08:17 PM
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And now _I'm_ confused.
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