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> Cyberlimb Armor, How does it work?
Zeric
post Apr 20 2006, 07:06 PM
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How exactly does cyberlimb armor work? Does it only apply when that specific limb is being targeted, or is it averaged in with worn armor similar to how partial cyberlimb attributes work?
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Moon-Hawk
post Apr 20 2006, 07:07 PM
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We don't know.
You could try searching, but after you read the many threads you'll just be feeling unsatisfied and angry about the lack of a FAQ.
Edit: That sounds very defeatist. Let me try to make it more cheerful: Hey, try searching, there's a lot of great discussion on this very topic! woo.
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Shrike30
post Apr 20 2006, 08:56 PM
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I have a feeling that there's a decent amount of stuff in the core book (Cyberlimb armor is one example, the use of the Instructor skill is another...) which is there so that people know it exists, but will be explained elsewhere later. I'm not sure that was the brightest idea ever, but it's how things seem to be.

I'd be happy to let players use the armor value of the cyberlimb should something untowards happen to it (say, they get hit by a car or it becomes a target, etc). If someone was really borging it out (full body replacement, baby!), I'd also be good with letting them simply take the average value of all their various limbs, torso, and head areas, and call that their overall armor rating (the simpler way of doing this is simply to only let them raise various parts of their body's armor equally).
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Squinky
post Apr 20 2006, 09:33 PM
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My group tends to go with it just stacking with other armor, no division. So, if you had 6 armor on you and got 2 on your cyber arm, you would then have 8.

There are arguements and examples for and against this, for being that dividing armor by the limbs (5 or 6 locations, however you do it) would typically give you way less armor than you deserve. A character who figured their armor this way and had, lets say 2 armor on each cyber arm, would divide 4 armor by 5 locations and get less than one more point of armor. Not very good for dumping 2 points of capacity per armor point (total of 8 capacity spent in both arms) to get less than one point.

If your group goes the dividing route, then I recomend to just not get cyber armor. Get orthskin or dermal plating, these would do much better, since having orthoskin 3 gives you +3 armor, which would require you to put all your limbs to 3 armor to equal, and lose 30 points of capacity in the process.

An arguement against this would be that a fully borged out character could get 4 points of armor on each limb, having somewhere around 20 armor without worn armor. It's a pretty scary thought, but would require losing all limbs and most essence, thus losing access to much of the cooler, better bioware and cyber, and burning up all the cyber-limb capacity in the process. So, any character who did this wouldn't have much for stats....

Anyways, thats my opinion on it.
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Konsaki
post Apr 21 2006, 02:37 AM
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IMO as it stands, cyber armor is just a RP tool since there are no concrete rules.
[ Spoiler ]
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Aaron
post Apr 21 2006, 03:41 AM
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I took another look at the rules, and I think that each point of armor on your cyber-body-part counts toward your total. Here's why.

First off, between helmets and shields, it's pretty clear that it doesn't matter where the armor is, just as long as it's covering something. Ditto that with the armor vest; it doesn't cover arms, legs, or head, but it still adds to a character's armor rating. Shooting for an area that is unarmored is covered under the rules for called shots.

Second, the encumbrance rules for too much armor cite the total armor value, not just that of armor worn. So a character that loads up on armor-plated cyber-stuff is still susceptible to Agility and Reaction penalties.

Finally, the BBB doesn't say that the armor doesn't add to the total armor, although it discusses attributes at length. (This would be a weak argument, worthy of a "yeah but," if it were not supported by the other two points.)

So, in my games, cyber-body-part armor adds to the full armor value of the character.
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James McMurray
post Apr 21 2006, 04:55 AM
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If I were to go that route I'd add the average of every body part's armor instead of the total armor amount.
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Ryu
post Apr 21 2006, 08:28 AM
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I´d like to say that Squinky´s post nicely sums up the discussions so far.

We are on the other side: divide by 5. I´ll freely admit that is only because of SR3 rules adaption in face of lacking information.

The problem is not the full-borg character (who pays enough already, and not only in terms of essence) but the rather easy upgrade of your body beyond the protection full-body milspec armor would offer.

Do as you like :D
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hobgoblin
post Apr 21 2006, 08:43 AM
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cyberlimbs and their addons have allways been a mess for SR given that SR do not use hitlocations. i wonder why not they use a fraction system for the boosts so that you dont have to add and then go about dividing by 5 for the end result.

hmm, maybe ill houserule that for easy refrence. adding a stat or armor addon to a cyberlimb adds .2 to the total rating and just forget about that "lead with limb" stuff.

still, i wonder what i should do with the meat stats when a character have gone full borg...
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Aaron
post Apr 21 2006, 11:14 AM
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QUOTE (James McMurray @ Apr 20 2006, 11:55 PM)
If I were to go that route I'd add the average of every body part's armor instead of the total armor amount.


That's what I used to think, too. But then I got stuck answering a couple of things.

What about helmets? They only cover the head. Vests are only on the torso, and jackets on the torso and arms. If you throw any of them on, your armor rating goes up with a straight one-to-one conversion.

If one is not dividing the rating of the worn armor, but is dividing the rating of the built-in armor, then why is a 600¥ wrapping of ballistic cloth "designed to be worn under regular clothing without displaying any bulk" more effective than 1,200¥ worth of upgrade (max armor on one limb)?

As it stands, it seems more or less balanced to me. Assuming that you're going for a full-body obvious conversion, max armor, well, you can't, because the total Essence cost would be 6.25, so let's make the arms alphaware so it all fits in. Four points of armor each in the torso, arms, and legs, and two in the head (more wouldn't fit), for a total of 22/22 armor. That leaves one with the following capacities to split up between Body, Strength, and Agility in each body part: seven for each arm, twelve for each leg, two for the torso, and none for the head. Let's say you boost the Body of each limb by three or four and two in the torso, so your Body Attributes are going to be 6 in the arms, 7 in the legs, 5 in the torso, and 3 in the head (the natural Body no longer matters). Average that for full-body action (like avoiding armor encumbrance), and you get 5. That's twelve points over the Body x 2 max for armor encumbrance, so -6 to Agility and Reaction if you're being nice, and -12 if you're counting ballistic and impact separately.

Oh, and the grand total of the above, not including Strength or Agility enhancements, is going to run 130,400¥ (the low-low equivalent of 26.08 BP, if you're counting), which isn't bad for an immobile lump of cyberware; maybe it'd be good for a rigger or something.
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hobgoblin
post Apr 21 2006, 12:05 PM
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my reasoning for the armor rating of the diffrent items you can wear is that they have allready an avarage armor rating.

as in the "armored clothing" have a avarage rating of 4/0 after adding together the rating of the diffrent areas it covers and then had the sum divided by 5.

so in theory the armored clothing have a ballistic armor rating of 5. but as it only covers the limbs and torso, its effective rating is 4.

it could be that a higher rating equals better, more high-tech fibers. or it could mean more layers. most likely its a combo.

allso, i dont think that a armored vest would in any way hide under say a t-shirt. not with those ratings ;)
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Aaron
post Apr 21 2006, 12:34 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin)
my reasoning for the armor rating of the diffrent items you can wear is that they have allready an avarage armor rating.

The same reasoning could be used for cyberlimb armor. Armor on a cyberlimb doesn't have to be supple or even comfortable, so I can easily imagine it as being made of a material far superior to that in a vest.

QUOTE (hobgoblin)

allso, i dont think that a armored vest would in any way hide under say a t-shirt. not with those ratings


Heh. "Gee, I didn't see that armor vest under your wife-beater, there." But don't overestimate armor ratings; they're only worth about one-third their value in damage reduction. At a rating of 4, you're reducing a bit more than one damage on the Impact side; heck, I, a geek, can do more than that myself with a one-meter stick!
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James McMurray
post Apr 21 2006, 03:52 PM
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QUOTE
What about helmets? They only cover the head. Vests are only on the torso, and jackets on the torso and arms. If you throw any of them on, your armor rating goes up with a straight one-to-one conversion.


QUOTE
my reasoning for the armor rating of the diffrent items you can wear is that they have allready an avarage armor rating.


What he said.
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hobgoblin
post Apr 21 2006, 05:49 PM
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QUOTE
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
my reasoning for the armor rating of the diffrent items you can wear is that they have allready an avarage armor rating.

The same reasoning could be used for cyberlimb armor. Armor on a cyberlimb doesn't have to be supple or even comfortable, so I can easily imagine it as being made of a material far superior to that in a vest.

there is a point where limb armor gets in the way of basic functionality. and if it was not supposed to be concelable then they would not have given it a capacity rating (that and game balance) as you could just bolt armor plate on top of the framework...

QUOTE
QUOTE (hobgoblin)

allso, i dont think that a armored vest would in any way hide under say a t-shirt. not with those ratings


Heh. "Gee, I didn't see that armor vest under your wife-beater, there." But don't overestimate armor ratings; they're only worth about one-third their value in damage reduction. At a rating of 4, you're reducing a bit more than one damage on the Impact side; heck, I, a geek, can do more than that myself with a one-meter stick!


now that isnt an argument pro or con cyberlimb armor, but the armor rules in general. did you check if any of the optional rules fits your view of how it should work better?
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Aaron
post Apr 21 2006, 06:00 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin)
there is a point where limb armor gets in the way of basic functionality. and if it was not supposed to be concelable then they would not have given it a capacity rating (that and game balance) as you could just bolt armor plate on top of the framework...

I agree. I suspect that's why cyberlimb armor has capacity limits, along with the general rules about high armor values causing a reduction of Agility and Reaction.
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Shrike30
post Apr 24 2006, 06:43 PM
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Who's to say you can't bolt it on top of the framework, so to speak? Any borg with half a brain is going to wear armor on top of his body, if for no other reason than it's cheaper to shuck off and replace full body armor than it is to get your metalbod sprayed with acid or shot full of holes.
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