Invisible characters, Issues with invisibility & melee combat Options

[Edward]

The biggest problem with a bending light description is that the invisible character can still see.

[hobgoblin]

my take on the whole invisibility bit is that whenever the person coverd by the spell comes into view of someone, the spell leaps out and edits the persons perceptions so that the person is no longer there in the image they see.

therefor the physical version can work against cameras, but not against stuff like mm-radar (cyberware scanner) as it have to interpet the data rather then just read ;)

allso, if its a active scanner, it can just as much read something from the lack of a echo, as the echo itself. but a passive scanner (like a camera) just gets whatever its given.

a allways active mm-radar will be "pinging" all the time (sending out energy) and then reading the echo. as as soon as the echo changes, there is something funny going on. and unless the invisibility effect is a kind of "dome" over the person, the void will be humanoid shaped. or it will differ compared to a "empty" echo.

[Kanada Ten]

[hobgoblin]

the spell would remove the image of the person, but not the shadow behind him ;)

basicly i would give a good cover modifier to anyone under the spell, but allso give any player that comes up with the idea of using a flashlight that way some extra karma for creativity.

allso, unless its a very highpowerd, and therefor heavy flashlight, or its very dark, i would not allow anyone to automaticaly notice the shadow. roll perception...

[James McMurray]

We've always just had it keep you from being seen, without worrying about the hows and whys. It's worked well enough so far and we've never had to debate about whether bending light makes you blind. :)

[CONAN9845]

Edward, if your mage can “sneak in and steal” anything using just an Improved Invisibility spell, then he deserves it. I also wouldn’t allow another living thing to be affected by the spell, in the case of carrying someone. I would allow small living things to be concealed, though, like animals or plants. A person using drone sensors, even if they are within line of sight otherwise, is beat if the spell is not resisted somehow. He could even resist the spell physically, see the mage, and then lose the mage upon switching to the drones sensors. He would be better off just transmitting the info to the drone first. Is the person with the commlink using Invisibility or Improved? If the former, the effect is seen: if the latter, then it is not. In the end, if you are invisible, yet still transmitting (anything), that’s pretty stupid. I agree that with physics, bending light would make it harder for the mage to see, but that’s not an issue. Everyone is still thinking in the real world. It’s magic, and it works however you want it to work.

GrinderTheTroll, I don’t think docking the characters for being unoriginal is a good idea. In the end, they should be doing what works for them. It’s the GMs job to challenge them, not their own job to challenge themselves. I like the idea of making their life miserable for being invisible all the time, though.

Shrike30, I get the impression that you don’t like invisibility being used very often, which I can understand. All of your interpretations seem perfectly reasonable to me, and as long as they work for you, that’s great. We just have a tendency to let mages get complacent; not knowing when they are going to be screwed by something, and then hit them. We call it “willy-nilly”. The mages are usually the first ones in to scout, either astrally, or while invisible. How this usually happens is the leader of the crew will turn to the mage and say, “Okay, it’s time for you to go ‘willy-nilly’ on the joint”. Why this is bad for the mage is because he is usually alone on this endeavor, and can be attacked by things when he cannot receive aid from his team. Also, we don’t allow transmitting of anything seen astrally by electronic means.

Galmorez, “shadow anomalies” and “predator outlines”? The spell is realistic. There is neither of those things. If the spell isn’t resisted, the character can’t be visually seen. Oh, and if the mage isn’t also using Stealth and Levitate, what’s the point of being Invisible where security is concerned. I don’t want to touch, or be detected by, anything when I am sneaking. That would make that motion sensor useless. At least, in my games it would. Most of those perception tests would be at –6, too. And even if you did make the Threshold, you would be –6 to attack an invisible person.

Hobgoblin, I disagree with the “human shaped” hole theory. It’s magic, and Improved Invisibility affects technological sensors as well. In our games, if it uses any form of light waves to “visually detect” the character, then it doesn’t work. Again, just my interpretation. I agree with what Kanada Ten said. Are you trying to say that an invisible character still casts a shadow? How much sense does that make?

James… I love you. Seriously. Okay, just kidding, but that’s exactly the way we do it.

In the end, a lot of you seem to be using the spell to affect physics, whereas we use it more as a mana/mental thing that affects the minds, even with Improved. I know it says in the book that with Improved, it creates an actual warping of light around the subject (which must be all light, not just visible, as it affects low-light and thermographic vision as well). But it also states that it does that “as well”. We just use that to mean that it still affects the minds of viewers as the Invisibility spell does.

I don’t understand why there are Invisibility and Improved Invisibility spells, and yet there is only one Stealth spell, which functions in the same manner as an Improved Stealth spell would, if there were both. It has the same stats as Improved Invisibility. Why anyone would use Invisibility alone is beyond me. With Improved Invisibility, I would rule that anything that uses light waves as a means of detection is fooled. We haven’t had any problems with that interpretation yet.

[dcpirahna]

[James McMurray]

And be sure to "surround" many common "words" in quotation marks for no "apparent" reason. ;)

[shadowbod]

The following info might help people and has been taken from the FanPro SR4 adventure "On the Run". I hope that they will not mind me reproducing the info from the book here.

[CradleWorm]

I'd like to point out a few things that I think may influence the conversation. First off, invisibility or improved invisibility spells do not bend light. They are an illusion spell and as such have no effect on the physical world, only the minds of those viewing it. A spell that does bend light would be a manipulation spell.

With this said, the spell itself only reduces the number of dice available to the target for a perception test to spot the target of the spell. This is also only by a number of dice equal to the net hits from a spell resistance test. Further, if no perception test is required to see the target of the spell you can't loose any dice.

Let me explain that last point a bit further. Some actions in Shadowrun are just automatic. These actions are automatically successful. Examples might be walking and chewing gum at the same time.

So, even if your character is invisible if you do something that will draw attention to yourself in such a way that spotting you no longer requires a roll and is automatic they can see you.

So, way back to the first example of the katana wielding invisible spell caster. He can not simply walk around unseen. If spotting him would normally not require a perception test, then it still doesn't and they can see him. Now if he is using his sneaking skill to approach, then a perception test is required and the invisibility counts.

[Aaron]

Hm. I guess I'm interpreting "Anyone who might perceive the subject must first successfully resist the spell" (Boyle et al. 201) a lot differently than you are, CradleWorm.

[Shrike30]

Improved Invisibility is, by the description in the BBB, a Physical spell, and it's listed effect is that it bends light.

[ryanstone]

Don't forget that invisible characters would be visible to anyone wearing goggles with image enhancement. They do not have to pay any essence for them, and they are essentially viewing little LCD displays that show what the camera is picking up. Since the camera cannot be tricked by invisiblity, then the character or player is visible to anyone who is augmenting their perception with NV or thermal goggles.

Or, this is how the rules say it should work.

[X-Kalibur]

[Demon_Bob]

Taking Down an Invisible Character?

Mage with airburst grenade launcher, mine field, KO gas
hostile Spirits

Mundane guard with high Intuition, Willpower and max levels of magic resistance.
Sure he can't be healed magically, but those nifty magic tricks don't work on him either.

Personally, I Like the Invisible Special Forces Strike Team.

Invisible mage walks through unseen Mad scanner. MAD Scanner detects Katana. Mad Scanner quietly notifies nearby guard. guard looks around sees no one. Scanner has not been acting up previously. savvy guard calls for magical back-up, and puts place on high alert. The rest of the party waits in line at the museum as guards wave detectors around. Various pressure plates and scanners keep track of invisible perp until he can be safely contained.

Being Invisible during the entire mission does cause problems.
Sat on by Troll during ride to site; Police take interest in Unmanned vehicle; accidently getting in line of fire (providing cover for another character's target).
Scene 3 takes place in a crowded bar, because character is used to going about invisible he could forget to drop the invisibility, If he wants to be invisible that creates havock as he could easily come out battered and bruised and smelling of multiple drinks.

[Tarantula]

Just having been reading the other invis threads around gave me a great idea for how to fix your broken sword using mage.

Since by the RAW improved invis bends light around the mage, the mage is in total darkness while imp invis. If the mage wants to see, he would have to astrally perceive, as it doesn't use light to see with. This puts him at a -4 to attack with his sword (-2 for perceiving and doing a purely physical action, and -2 for sustaining a spell). -4 dice to every swing you make is quite a lot. Throw in guards realizing that they're being attacked from thin air and allow them to do things like realize there might be an invisible intruder, and take proper measures against it. (Spraying them in the area with pepper punch for example). Not only does the mage then some nasty stun damage, but the guards can now see some floating pepper punch juice in the air, making it easier to further attack the character, or alternately, avoid the character.

[Cang]

What i told my players is that when they cast the invisible or impr invisible spell on themselves, they are targeting themselves and the things on them/in them with the spell. If they pick up and item or fall into mud and things of the such, the spell is not attached to those objects, so they can be seen. If they recast the spell on themselves, then it will target the mud and object they picked up, and rend them invisible. :cyber:

[Kyoto Kid]

...Letsee

Paintball guns

Dye Grenades (UV or normal)

The aforementioned Pepper Punch grenades ("dat burns so good, non?" -Hurricane Hannah)

Mist sprayers in the corridors

Bags of soy flour (the ol' dust of appearance trick).

Olfactory sensors (Implant or part of the security system)

Pheromone sensors

A high intuition and hearing augmentation (Enhanced audio III, Spatial recogniser, etc)