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> Weapon Focus, Is this broken?
TBRMInsanity
post Apr 23 2006, 02:01 AM
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I wanted to create a weapon focus that was a pistol. The pistol part of the weapon would not be the weapon focus and you would get no bonus to firing the weapon, but if you used the weapon as a club (ie close combat) it would become a weapon focus. I can see where this could get nasty very quick so I'm hesitant to create it.
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Ancient History
post Apr 23 2006, 02:10 AM
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It's perfectly legal to enchant the pistol; it only acts as a weapon focus when used to pistol-whip someone.
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TBRMInsanity
post Apr 23 2006, 02:23 AM
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I'm guessing the damage of a pistol whip is:
(str/2 + 1)P with a range of -
Or would it be the same as the sap:
(str/2 + 1)S with a range of -
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Ancient History
post Apr 23 2006, 02:30 AM
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Check page 149 of SR4, under improvised weapons. (Str/2 + 1)P

While this may seem odd to those who remember it being stun damage in the Cannon Companion, keep in mind that any blow to the head is potentially dangerous - the movie cliches of knocking someone out by cracking their skull with a pistol are exagerrated.
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Piecemeal
post Apr 23 2006, 04:03 AM
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QUOTE
keep in mind that any blow to the head is potentially dangerous - the movie cliches of knocking someone out by cracking their skull with a pistol are exagerrated.

you mean like times when a pistol accidentally discharges and a bullet tragically plows a ballistic highway through the poor sods cranial cavity? yeah.. hmm.. damned inconvenient -at least for the person who just previous had two functioning lobes. however with a SL that would bar on impossible.
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Glyph
post Apr 23 2006, 05:03 AM
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Most posters here seem to have no problems with a pistol weapon focus used as an improvised club (judging from other threads where the topic has come up). The controversy only arises when people propose pistols as a ranged weapon focus.

A pistol used as a club is, if anything, underpowered compared to things like katanas, monofilament whips, combat axes, and polearms as weapon foci.
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Ancient History
post Apr 23 2006, 05:09 AM
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QUOTE (Piecemeal)
QUOTE
keep in mind that any blow to the head is potentially dangerous - the movie cliches of knocking someone out by cracking their skull with a pistol are exagerrated.

you mean like times when a pistol accidentally discharges and a bullet tragically plows a ballistic highway through the poor sods cranial cavity? yeah.. hmm.. damned inconvenient -at least for the person who just previous had two functioning lobes. however with a SL that would bar on impossible.

Unless you're talking about the bullet entering the attacker's brainpan, then I really don't see how that could happen when you pistol-whip someone - which is accomplished by bashing the victim across the head or shoulders with the butt of the weapon, typically using the barrel of the gun as a handle (though you could also be holding the gun by the handle and bringing the butt of the gun down in that manner as well).
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Kanada Ten
post Apr 23 2006, 05:16 AM
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I think the original worry was that the adept wouldn't have to ready a new weapon and get all these bonuses for defense using parry...? But with the ability to use brass knuckles and such as weapon foci, I'm not concerned.
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Ancient History
post Apr 23 2006, 05:23 AM
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Eh. Same old argument with bayonets. 's all good.
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TBRMInsanity
post Apr 23 2006, 06:31 PM
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I was thinking more of a Gun Kata character loosely based of the character in Equilibrium. Sometimes you want to conserve bullets but you don't want to drop your gun.

BTW:
Most modern pistols (and also most dated ones as well) have very effective safeties that will stop the weapon from discharging when it is used as a club. My guess is that by the time of 2070 these safety devices would have only improved not got worse. Miss fires from jarring a weapon are only common in the automatics (SMGs and assault rifles).
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Thanee
post Apr 23 2006, 06:55 PM
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QUOTE (TBRMInsanity)
I was thinking more of a Gun Kata character loosely based of the character in Equilibrium. Sometimes you want to conserve bullets but you don't want to drop your gun.

Unarmed Combat?

Bye
Thanee
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Big D
post Apr 23 2006, 08:13 PM
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For a gun kata PC, I'd go gun adept (Imp Ab Pistols and/or Automatics 3), some Combat Sense, and an extra point or 2 of magic to accomodate some cyber.

I threw together a quick elf adept with 8 AGI, 7 Automatics(9 SMGs), 4 Pistols(6 Semi-Auto), 5 MAG (3 after ESS loss), and a smattering of other skills. Oh, and 5 EDG for those impossible shots.

PPs went to 3 Imp Ab (Automatics), 2 Pistols, and 1 Combat Sense.

Added Muscle Toner 2, Enhanced Articulation, Reflex Recorder(Firearms), Platelet Factories, and Sleep Regulator, along with a pair of cybereyes loaded with the works.

It all fit within a 400 point build with cash left over for guns and gear. Dropping to human might work even better; you trade 1 AGI for 1 EDG + 30BP to flesh out your other skills.

In play, you'd have to initiate and raise MAG if you wanted to put in more chrome; only .45 "free" ESS left after the adept powers are added into the calculation. Secondary skills are pretty weak, and other stats are a little low (except R/I for Init).

Starting dice pool with SMGs is 26 counting smartlink. Semi-autos start at 22 dice. Swap them around if you prefer pistols, and replace one with UC if you want that instead.

Yum, munchy.
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mintcar
post Apr 23 2006, 08:48 PM
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Are you forgetting that foci are created specificly to be just that? As far as I remember there has never been rules for enchanting any ol' thing. The enchanting rules of the old Grimoire (were they in MitS also?) required you to collect raw materials, refine them and then create your own focus from them. How on earth do you create a pistol from your own home-smelted oricalcium/steel mixture?

I might concider allowing this kind of focus, but only as a special weapon-focus model of an existing gun, bought off the rack.

(Basicly there's a reason why foci are so expencive; they all contain (small amounts of) oricalcium. Guns normally don't. So if your GM does not agree that some company manufactures an oricalcium handgun... Though off course they might just as well, as magic is big buisness in Shadowrun. )
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TBRMInsanity
post Apr 23 2006, 09:04 PM
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Maybe if you got away with having a add-on package for an existing model gun. This would also cover the problem that you can't touch a hot barrel. The add-on would be the weapon focus and would cover the barrel and hand guard (but leaving the action and clip assembly alone).
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Geekkake
post Apr 23 2006, 09:05 PM
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QUOTE (Big D)
For a gun kata PC, I'd go gun adept (Imp Ab Pistols and/or Automatics 3), some Combat Sense, and an extra point or 2 of magic to accomodate some cyber.

I threw together a quick elf adept with 8 AGI, 7 Automatics(9 SMGs), 4 Pistols(6 Semi-Auto), 5 MAG (3 after ESS loss), and a smattering of other skills. Oh, and 5 EDG for those impossible shots.

PPs went to 3 Imp Ab (Automatics), 2 Pistols, and 1 Combat Sense.

Added Muscle Toner 2, Enhanced Articulation, Reflex Recorder(Firearms), Platelet Factories, and Sleep Regulator, along with a pair of cybereyes loaded with the works.

It all fit within a 400 point build with cash left over for guns and gear. Dropping to human might work even better; you trade 1 AGI for 1 EDG + 30BP to flesh out your other skills.

In play, you'd have to initiate and raise MAG if you wanted to put in more chrome; only .45 "free" ESS left after the adept powers are added into the calculation. Secondary skills are pretty weak, and other stats are a little low (except R/I for Init).

Starting dice pool with SMGs is 26 counting smartlink. Semi-autos start at 22 dice. Swap them around if you prefer pistols, and replace one with UC if you want that instead.

Yum, munchy.

This character is just begging for an orbital cow.
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TBRMInsanity
post Apr 23 2006, 09:10 PM
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I always loved the seagulls of death.
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Ancient History
post Apr 23 2006, 09:14 PM
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QUOTE
Are you forgetting that foci are created specificly to be just that? As far as I remember there has never been rules for enchanting any ol' thing. The enchanting rules of the old Grimoire (were they in MitS also?) required you to collect raw materials, refine them and then create your own focus from them. How on earth do you create a pistol from your own home-smelted oricalcium/steel mixture?

It can be done. It requires considerable work and skill, but anyone could build a firearm from scratch. It won't be a Predator IV with internal smartlink, but it'll fire bullets.

That said, you don't have to build anything from scratch - you can enchant any item you want. It's just progressively more difficult to enchant highly processed items.

QUOTE
Basicly there's a reason why foci are so expencive; they all contain (small amounts of) oricalcium.

Not true. Hell, even weapon foci aren't required to possess orichalcum since third edition. The times, they are a-changin'.
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mintcar
post Apr 23 2006, 09:23 PM
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I haven't bothered reading enchanting rules since the Grimoire :) .
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Ancient History
post Apr 23 2006, 09:26 PM
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Ignorance is not a valid defense. :)
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mintcar
post Apr 23 2006, 09:35 PM
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Ignorance is not a defense at all. It may be bliss sometimes, but it won't protect you. Admiting your ignorance however, is one of the best defenses there is. :)
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Ancient History
post Apr 23 2006, 09:59 PM
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Only if you then apply yourself to no longer be ignorant. :)
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Glyph
post Apr 23 2006, 10:27 PM
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QUOTE (Geekkake)
QUOTE (Big D @ Apr 23 2006, 03:13 PM)
For a gun kata PC, I'd go gun adept (Imp Ab Pistols and/or Automatics 3), some Combat Sense, and an extra point or 2 of magic to accomodate some cyber.

I threw together a quick elf adept with 8 AGI, 7 Automatics(9 SMGs), 4 Pistols(6 Semi-Auto), 5 MAG (3 after ESS loss), and a smattering of other skills.  Oh, and 5 EDG for those impossible shots.

PPs went to 3 Imp Ab (Automatics), 2 Pistols, and 1 Combat Sense.

Added Muscle Toner 2, Enhanced Articulation, Reflex Recorder(Firearms), Platelet Factories, and Sleep Regulator, along with a pair of cybereyes loaded with the works.

It all fit within a 400 point build with cash left over for guns and gear.  Dropping to human might work even better; you trade 1 AGI for 1 EDG + 30BP to flesh out your other skills.

In play, you'd have to initiate and raise MAG if you wanted to put in more chrome; only .45 "free" ESS left after the adept powers are added into the calculation.  Secondary skills are pretty weak, and other stats are a little low (except R/I for Init).

Starting dice pool with SMGs is 26 counting smartlink.  Semi-autos start at 22 dice.  Swap them around if you prefer pistols, and replace one with UC if you want that instead.

Yum, munchy.

This character is just begging for an orbital cow.

What's so obscene about that build? Sure, the character will be lethal at ranged combat, but also stuck at only one initiative pass (barring Edge or combat drugs), and Body and Reaction are probably far from optimal, unless other Attributes were really gutted, which creates more problems. So you have a build that has sacrificed dodging, soaking, and speed in favor of an amount of dice that will, in most cases, be overkill. The only problem I might have with it, is that the new erratta on enhanced skills might not let 3 points of improved ability stack with the reflex recorder.

Nothing wrong with the character, if the player wants to play someone who is an absolute crack shot, and doesn't mind taking a hit in other areas at first (although in the original poster's case, I got the impression that it was more of a numbers-crunching exercise than a serious potential character). If I did have a problem with the character, then I would address that at char-gen, not in the game, with death by GM fiat. That's just a way to lose players.
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James McMurray
post Apr 23 2006, 10:31 PM
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Much like the original post appears not to have been meant to be an actual character, I doubt that the response was intended to mena literally dropping a cow on them from orbit. :)

I wouldn't have a problem with it. With that high a focus on combat the player might find themselves bored for large portions of the run, or even a detriment at times (like when in a social situation).
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Big D
post Apr 23 2006, 10:51 PM
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Moo.

(random poll--how many of you city boys have ever been within 10' of a cow? :))

No, it was just some number-crunching and min-maxing. And yes, the lack of IP is a problem--but you're going to have that problem no matter what with an adept, because IP either costs too much ESS, too much PP, or too much $$$ for a starting char.

My advice if you really want to play a min-max char like this is to beg somebody to play a mage with Sustaining (Health) foci and a large spellcasting pool. Adepts in particular should love such a mage, because Imp Reflex is far too expensive in PP as it is now.

Also, stay out of social situations. And pump critical untrained skills to 1 as soon as you can before they get you killed.

Hmmm. Bovine Thor shots.

Or, you could just TP offending characters to the Shadowrun secret "Cow Level".
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Squinky
post Apr 24 2006, 02:34 AM
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QUOTE (TBRMInsanity)

BTW:
Most modern pistols (and also most dated ones as well) have very effective safeties that will stop the weapon from discharging when it is used as a club. My guess is that by the time of 2070 these safety devices would have only improved not got worse.

Agreed, but with the current trend of going to plastic like, light weight materials for pistols, I don't see them as being effective for clubbing. I owned a Glock, and it would be worthless pistol whipping.
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