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> Ammo cooking, can't find sepcifics
FloodSpectre
post Apr 23 2006, 10:14 PM
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Greets all, new poster here.

I've been toying around with an idea for my first SR4 character and came up with a mage using fire based spells like Ignite. In the descriptions of these spells and of fire based damage the book lists ammo or explosives possibly detonating due to the heat. However, I can't seem to find any actual rules to determine whether ammo cooks or not, and how much damage that would do. Anyone have any insight into this issue ?
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mfb
post Apr 23 2006, 10:18 PM
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generally, your caseless round works best in a light beef broth, especially if you splash it with sherry for flavor. for case rounds, you want to fry them lightly, then add fresh garlic and cloves.
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Backgammon
post Apr 23 2006, 10:26 PM
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Uhhh.... adding to what mfb said, the rules for cooking off ammo in SR3, though not thorougly developped, are as follows:

make Object Resistance test with OR-1 vs power of fire
If test fails, victim rolls vs damage code of the weapon. No armour, but Combat Pool.

So, you now have to convert that to SR4
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Austere Emancipa...
post Apr 23 2006, 11:23 PM
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QUOTE (Backgammon)
So, you now have to convert that to SR4

Or not, if you're pro-sanity.
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SpasticTeapot
post Apr 23 2006, 11:47 PM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
QUOTE (Backgammon)
So, you now have to convert that to SR4

Or not, if you're pro-sanity.

I'd have the PC make a test, with the pool based on the type of ammunition, and modified by where it's kept. (Cased light pistol ammo in a steel box would have a dice pool of 12 or so, wheras caseless Ex-Ex ammo would have a dice pool of 2.) The target number would be equal to the unadjusted damage dealt by the fire spell.

A botch often results in cooked-off ammo, as far as I'm concerned.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Apr 23 2006, 11:59 PM
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This is silly. Why not discuss the real matter at hand?

I'm actually partial to some deep-fried 172gr 7.62x51mm FMJ-BTs with 44gr of Vihtavuori N550.
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eidolon
post Apr 24 2006, 12:21 AM
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I might do something like have the burning player/NPC make a resistance roll against an attack of half the power of the weapon his carried ammo is for.

As far as whether it ever cooked off or not, I'd probably just base that on how burny the character was. Jacket caught fire and he spent an action doffing it? Nah. Jacket caught fire and he spent his next two actions running and firing? Roll to resist damage. :)

It'd depend on the situation. Oh, and this may or may not be SR4 accurate at all.
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LynGrey
post Apr 24 2006, 03:19 AM
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here is what i do when that happens. I look at them and go how much ammo are you carring. I know the answer to this before he even says so half the time, and its always going to be less than what they really brought in.. all of a sudden.. the 100 rounds of extra ammo becomes 10 when they get lite on fire. Funny thing is, they just gave me of the number of rounds they had left when the ammo cooks. So they say 10, and earlier they said 100, 90 rouns went of. And i'll usally just role dice = the number of rounds cooked... every hit 5+ is a round fired at them, keep track of that and then roll agian and on 5+ it hits them agian..... but if i roll really bad, i'll give them atleast one box of extra damge form the fire, and say they got lucky. I know i'm kind of a douche, but thats the best way, i hate players that do the ole so famous "stat swap" I have 100 kils of C-4, oh im on fire i have only 1 kilo, don't you remember i left the pack back in that other room.
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eidolon
post Apr 24 2006, 06:12 AM
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Hehe. Reminds me of a Nightbane game I was playing in. The partial reconstruction combat borg Russian packed not only tons of rounds for his mini-grenade launcher, but also carried several grenades and not a few fusion-blocks (mega-damage C4 type stuff).

He got hugged by a living fireball spell.
:D

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Dranem
post Apr 24 2006, 06:47 AM
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Umm... correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of C-4 (C-12 in SR) is that it's a stable plastique - requiring a detonator. No detonator cap, no boom.
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mfb
post Apr 24 2006, 07:17 AM
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well, it requires both heat and pressure--eg, an explosion--to detonate. a blasting cap will do that, as will lighting it on fire and then trying to stomp it out (hee hee!). incidentally, that's also a good recipe for chunky-style salsa.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Apr 24 2006, 09:58 AM
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So there's the lesson, folks! If you're turned into a human bonfire and you're carrying large amounts of high explosive, don't start hitting yourself with a hammer!
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Aaron
post Apr 24 2006, 12:16 PM
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QUOTE (FloodSpectre)
However, I can't seem to find any actual rules to determine whether ammo cooks or not, and how much damage that would do. Anyone have any insight into this issue ?

That'd be on pages 55-56, under Glitches.
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dcpirahna
post Apr 24 2006, 03:27 PM
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Using fire to "ignite people's ammo" is a movie myth. Just do some google searches. Here's a quote from a site for people who collect ammo as a hobby.

QUOTE
Tests have shown that ammunition exposed to a fire may eventually be heated to the point that the primer and/or powder will ignite.  This will usually result in the cartridge case rupturing, and force the primer from the primer pocket.  The powder burns, and does not explode. Since the ammunition is not constrained within the barrel of a gun, the force is dispersed in all directions, and the bullet will do little more than drop out of the case.  The primer, any pieces of the ruptured cartridge case, and the bullet  will not penetrate anything much stronger than a corrugated cardboard box a few inches away.  Military surplus "ammo cans" are excellent and safe methods for storing ammunition.  Newspaper accounts of house or business fires where "bullets exploded by the heat went shooting over firefighters' heads" are completely false and based on invalid assumptions and ignorance.  However, news people often leap to hysterical conclusions which attract a lot of attention and are seldom corrected.


You might be able to ignite the round that is inside the chamber (which makes the bullet go out the business end of the gun, so unless they're pointing their gun at themself, fairly harmless) but any rounds in a magazine would just have the primer pop out the back and be contained by the magazine. Theoretically if they all went off at once inside the magazine it could cause enough pressure build up to force round out of the top but I doubt it would be that much force. Most likely it would just sound like someone is making some microwave popcorn. You could possibly damage the gun, and make all the ammo worthless but it's unlikely any armored opponent is going to take any damage.

A round that you throw in the fire is generally not going to create enough force to penetrate a cardboard box.

(For anyone dumb, please do not try it at home anyway.)

Now SR Ex and Ex-Ex ammo you can make an argument for, but normal ammo is not that succeptible to fire.



Edit:

More info from http://www.shooters-choice.com

QUOTE
Despite what you've seen in the movies, stocks of firearm ammunition will not mass explode. According to the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) if a single cartridge or shotshell in a carton or case is caused to fire, it will not cause other or adjacent cartridges or shotshells to explode in a sympathetic or simultaneous manner.

Firearm ammunition is simply not an overly sensitive item. Ammunition will not explode due to shock or excessive vibration and, if somehow discharged in the open without the support provided by a firearm's chamber or other close confinement, it does so very inefficiently.

"If a cartridge explodes outside the chamber, the projectile or debris particles from the case or hull have an extremely limited velocity and range," says Frank Ventimiglia, vice-president of Shooter's Choice gun care products. "The only debris likely to be flung far are pieces of the primer cap, which may be propelled a short range - usually under 50 feet.

"In fact, firefighters should know that ammunition involved in fire does not 'go off' or propel debris at a velocity sufficient to penetrate garments and protective gear that they wear."
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Lagomorph
post Apr 24 2006, 08:47 PM
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I would say that ammo would cook off only in glitch of the damage resistance of the person being burned.

Though I'm very inclined to believe dcpirhana's post about how useless cookoff really is. It's not like bullets would become less safe in 60 years.
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Big D
post Apr 24 2006, 09:31 PM
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Now, heavier rounds are an issue... next to the entry for ammo cook-off in the encyclopedia should be pictures of M-4s and T-72s.
If somebody drops an ignite spell on a box of grenades... I might worry.
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dcpirahna
post Apr 24 2006, 09:42 PM
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Yes. All of my stuff only applies to small arms ammo.

If someone's carrying around a mortar/assaultcannon/missle round, all bets are off.
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eidolon
post Apr 25 2006, 02:26 AM
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QUOTE (dcpirahna)
<snip>

I vote "Who cares? It's cool. That's why it's in movies."

:)
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FloodSpectre
post Apr 28 2006, 10:52 PM
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QUOTE (Aaron)
That'd be on pages 55-56, under Glitches.

Thanks, I'll check there.

Thanks for all the other replies too. Especially the ammunition recipes, those could be useful someday... Mmmm...
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