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> Concealability modifier, The 'hidden' art of running a game
shadowbod
post Apr 25 2006, 04:57 PM
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I'd like to hear how all of you handle the concealability dice pool modifier when running a game. My problem with it is that as it is a dice pool modifier (rather than a threshold modifier) it means rolling a different number of dice for each 'size category' of item that might be noticed, e.g. NPC with Intuition 4 and Perception skill 4 has 8 dice to roll, requiring 2 successes for heavy pistol sized items, but only 4 dice for holdout pistol sized ones (according to the table on p302 of the SR4 book). All these different dice pools can leave the GM far too many dice to roll at the start of any encounter where the players might be carrying hidden items (or even not particularly hidden ones!). Every NPC in an encounter would have to roll their modified dice pool number of dice for every different size item to see if they spot them!

Pretty unworkworkable if you ask me, so what do you do?
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Eryk the Red
post Apr 25 2006, 05:00 PM
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I don't bother. I'm sure you could just make up thresholds in place of the modifiers. But in the end, I don't bother with it usually. It's not worth the trouble in my games. People notice if I decide they notice.
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mintcar
post Apr 25 2006, 05:16 PM
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Perception test for concealed items table:

Hits/Modifier/Examples

1 /-4/ Assaultrifle, katana
2 /-2/ SMG, Heavy pistol, medkit, club
3 /+-0/ Light pistol, knife, sap, minidrone
4 /+2/ Holdout pistol, monowhip, ammo, credstick
5 /+4/ RFID tag, bug, micro-electronics

Threshold halfed for physical searches.

Modifier applies to the Palming + Agility test when intentionally concealing something.



(How about this? Bringing it more in line with other perception tests and assensing tests seems the right way to go.)
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Lagomorph
post Apr 25 2006, 05:25 PM
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Looks good mintcar
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mintcar
post Apr 25 2006, 05:30 PM
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There's only one level lost, and that is that the "SMG level" and the "Heavy pistol level" have been merged.

If you went with this house rule, I suppose you'd have to let consealability holster give a +1 to threshold and barrel accessories a -1, making these things more significant than before. I may be able to live with that in order to be able to make only one perception test for a sec guard and then compair it to all the team's hidden weapons!

Also, this table significantly increases the value of light pistols, as a very important line is drawn right between heavy and light pistols. But heck, I completely dig that.
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hobgoblin
post Apr 25 2006, 06:25 PM
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i would just roll against the most noticable. if they didnt spot that then they will not spot anything else either.
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Konsaki
post Apr 25 2006, 06:37 PM
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Order of the Stick situations come to mind if you make rolles for each class of item.
"Thats a nice holdout you are trying to conceal there, missy. Too bad i didnt roll good enough to see the AK on your back on my other checks..." :rotfl:
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hobgoblin
post Apr 25 2006, 06:48 PM
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ah, order of the stick. should get him to make a shadowrun version :silly:
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James McMurray
post Apr 25 2006, 07:00 PM
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Roll different colored dice all at once. If you roll 1 red, 2 blue, 3 white, and 4 green you've got totals for anywhere between 1 and 10 pool.
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shadowbod
post Apr 26 2006, 06:24 AM
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QUOTE (mintcar)
There's only one level lost, and that is that the "SMG level" and the "Heavy pistol level" have been merged.

If you went with this house rule, I suppose you'd have to let consealability holster give a +1 to threshold and barrel accessories a -1, making these things more significant than before. I may be able to live with that in order to be able to make only one perception test for a sec guard and then compair it to all the team's hidden weapons!

Also, this table significantly increases the value of light pistols, as a very important line is drawn right between heavy and light pistols. But heck, I completely dig that.


I like it - as you say, it brings concealability in-line with other perception tests and gives players more of a reason to carry a light pistol instead of a 'hand cannon'.

QUOTE (konsaki)
"Thats a nice holdout you are trying to conceal there, missy. Too bad i didnt roll good enough to see the AK on your back on my other checks..."


I think it's perfectly possible in real life to miss something obvious and still see a more hidden item, so why not in the game - ever heard the saying 'can't see the wood for the trees?'

QUOTE (hobgoblin)
i would just roll against the most noticable. if they didnt spot that then they will not spot anything else either


My point was that if they do spot the 'most noticable' item, what then? Do you take away two dice that you've rolled already (not possible) or maybe roll again for the next level of item etc. James' different coloured dice idea does go some way to sorting that particular issue. Also, the point of the perception test is to determine exactly which are the 'most noticable' items :)



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Edward
post Apr 26 2006, 07:03 AM
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If thy spot anything they wont allow in then the person will be subjected to a full pat down search requiring another roll with relevant bonuses. Including searcher suspicious, physical search and mad wand being used. At this point the chance of failure should be slim for anything les consolable than full ceramic holdouts in a groin holster.

Edward
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Mauler
post Apr 26 2006, 11:02 AM
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QUOTE (mintcar)
1 /-4/ Assaultrifle, katana
2 /-2/ SMG, Heavy pistol, medkit, club
3 /+-0/ Light pistol, knife, sap, minidrone
4 /+2/ Holdout pistol, monowhip, ammo, credstick
5 /+4/ RFID tag, bug, micro-electronics

Hmmm... I like. I might just steal that for my game if you don't mind. I'll give you credit of course.
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mintcar
post Apr 26 2006, 01:30 PM
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'Course I don't mind. Tell me how it did ok? I just made it up on the fly when I wrote the post.
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hobgoblin
post Apr 26 2006, 09:35 PM
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given posts on this forum, i have gotten the impression that loosing 3 dice will cost you a hit on avarage. so how about, for every -3 of dicepool, remove 1 hit? that way, you roll the normal pool, and then see what the mods will be afterwards. now if you roll very many hits, it should have the interesting effect of spotting difficult to find items.
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Konsaki
post Apr 27 2006, 12:12 AM
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Math is bad, M'kay. :D
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Mauler
post Apr 27 2006, 10:43 AM
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In this case, I'm not caring too much about math.
While I know that some detail will be lost and some items (like giving a lined coat a threshold modifier) will increase greatly in effectiveness, I still like this option for the following reasons:
- Perception tests are made by the GM in my game, so this doesn't affect players' rolls at all. I just have to inform them that concealable holsters and such are more valuable than they might think.
- It is more in line with other perception tests.
- It makes things generally easier for the GM, which is always a Good Thing™.

@mintcar: I'll let you know how it worked for me in a few weeks or so.
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