 Un-Shadow-ee Players, Warning: Long |
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 Apr 27 2006, 05:26 AM
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#51
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Midnight Toker  Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456  |
I was talking about real life. There are many ways to explain a PC getting away scott free do to good social rolls. Never underestimate the power of seduction and the Chewbaca defense. A character with a good secudtion skill can simply make people want to give them a second chance no matter what they did. An orator with a good fast talk skill can make up a reasonable explination and then rant about Chewbaca to confuse the targets and cover up all the obvious evidence against them. There are also lesser outcomes that can serve as a compromise when the shit really hits the fan such as "We can still be useful so instead of killing us just put bombs in our heads and give us a job." |
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Apr 27 2006, 05:50 AM
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#52
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 26-April 06 Member No.: 8,500 |
I appologize for being so obstinate about the topic of the use of social skills; I get the feeling that we could probably come to agree (or make some sort of comprimise) if we were playing together and as such recant my argument.
"There is more than one way to skin a cat." I think this ties in well with part of my problem. The players tend to think of everything as being a one-trick pony like they tend to make themselves. The police chase them in cars. That's what they do. If they drive 'hard' enough and 'better' than them, then they can 'win.' They don't consider that police are not only the law enforcement, but also the investigators, and they do know how to look for clues, as has been done in one form or another for the last several thousand years. They don't consider that in the year 2070, the police are FAR more coordinated than they are today, and when you throw magic in, it gets even that much more difficult. Drones, spirits (specifically watchers), aircraft with sensors that allow them to fly at such a high altitude that they don't need to worry too much about hand-held missile launchers. Organizing a web of cops to close in on a single target would be a logistical nightmare today, but suddenly it stops being so difficult when you have access to real-time traffic data (including when lights are going to change, what the patterns are like, possible routs they could take and how they could cut them off), the precise location of every single patrol unit in the entire city, information feeds comming in from not only arial survailance but also street cameras (the kind to catch you if you run a red-light), and real-time communicatoin between all of these components at once. It must be quite beautiful to see it work together, like a sort of technological sympony :P . Of course, I dropped all this, knowing full well that the players would have just 'failed' if I had allowed them to use everything they had at their disposal, and that wouldn't have been very much fun. I probably did the right thing too, just because I doubt that the police would pull out every single stop over this incident. Sigh I feel like I make the oppenents too smart. |
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Apr 27 2006, 06:15 AM
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#53
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
No argument here. That's the main definition as it's used in gaming parlance. Like I said, random observation. I guess I was just kinda following up my initial post to this thread somewhat. Sort of a roundabout way of saying that if your PCs want to play big and loud, but your metagame doesn't allow for that, maybe you should try changing your metagame instead of blaming your players for "not knowing how to play", which seems to be the illogical conclusion that's being drawn.
Hah. Don't even get me started on d20. I was talking about Dungeons and Dragons. ;) I like kickin' it AD&D 2nd Edition style. (Just messing around, I play d20 too, it's just not my favorite. I'm dying to find a good Iron Heroes GM though. I'm sick of GMing.) Oh, and @ hyz: Why is a wookie, livin' on Endor?? It does not, make, SENSE! |
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Apr 27 2006, 06:29 AM
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#54
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 26-April 06 Member No.: 8,500 |
I can agree with the jist of what you are saying here, and it makes me wonder if I should just throw them someplace where they can be 'big and loud.' It's funny, but you hit the nail right on the head. I should take a good look at myself before I say that the 'players... this or that.' I take the game way more seriously then my players do. I tend to look at every single little detail and see how it fits into the "Big Picture" ™, while the players just want to go around and have a good time being bad ass criminals who are on top of the world, which doesn't seem very compatable. The odd thing is... the other players want the exact same thing I want out of a game when they are running it, but that perspective seems to change when they are actually playing the game. I get berrated for not trying hard enough to take the game seriously when I play, but as soon as its them they want to be the guy from Equilibrium, someone deemed "Treyho" from Def-Jam, or other random characters who are played as the stereotype that is gleemed from their sources. Currently one of the players wants to emulate GTA to a degree, and is actually basing how his character looks off of his GTA: San Andreas character. When I told him that the cops will always be after him if he keeps acting out in public, he said that was what he wanted... I just don't know what to do. I don't want to run a game where I hit the world with a nerf bat, that's borring to me. I want to run a world that is dynamic, constantly changing, that will react to the players actions for good or for bad. Once again, I thank you all for your input, as already I have learned much from this discussion. |
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Apr 27 2006, 12:38 PM
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#55
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
How would I know? It is up to the individual GM to come up with descriptions and explanations to things that happen during play. Maybe something like,"He may not look like it, but he is one real talker. Heck, maybe the Muse or Shakespear or even God was whispering in his ear, cos by some divine miracle he convinced the cops that you guys were not involved and you watch incredulously as the judge and jury's suspicious expressions lift and nod as he continues his explanation. Soon even the cops and prosecutors are red-faced, everyone is convinced that they made a blunder. You are free to go." The fact that YOU are convinced that there is no way that the PCs can talk their way out blinds you to ways that you can explain it. Shit happens all the time, sometimes good shit happens. But you can either work with it or say,"No way... no way... no way... it can happen." In fact, I have played in games GMed by a similar GM before, he couldn't believe that our sam could talk his way into the tres chic party carrying all his tools of the trade, and he adamantly refused to allow the sam into the club, it ruined the entire evening, let me tell you. |
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Apr 27 2006, 01:26 PM
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#56
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
I don't think you understand what I meant (though you claim non-specificity, your quotation and choice of phrasing here seem to have painted this as my position). My full statement is that you can "teach the players a lesson", but you have to decide if that's the right thing to do or not. Bad things should not happen to the PCs just because you, as the GM, feel they are bad people, but rather because of their own actions. Rather, the lesson being taught is that over-the-top actions can have real in-game consequences (or, rather, letting the world react appropriately to what just happened). So the team storms a motorcade with an assault vehicle and heavy weaponry, and is later sloppy about the end dealings (making more enemies than they can aford). It's not unrealistic to have any evidence they left behind or tracks they didn't cover lead the cops to them. It's also not unrealistic to have their new enemies attempt to even the score. It's also not unrealistic that the players learn a lesson or three from this process. It isn't a "GM vs. PC" world. Rather, the PCs should contribute to the ongoing game by acting within certain groundrules of conduct so that the game can continue. If the PCs pull another job and do these same sorts of things (high profile damage which makes the cops look bad, double crossing the Johnson) then they probably aren't going to be getting many job offers. They can go out and try to make their own work, but that's a whole other bag of pain. I find the idea of the sniper to be an interesting one if used properly. Imagine, one of the PCs gets a commcall. He answers it and a voice says, "don't move" just as a sniper round knocks a hole in the wall beside him. He then gets informed of the doublecrossed Johnson's ire and that he has xyz demands. If the PC starts to get cocky or anything, shoot him in the head. Rinse and repeat. |
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Apr 27 2006, 02:02 PM
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#57
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 976 Joined: 16-September 04 From: Near my daughters, Lansdale PA Member No.: 6,668 |
I thought the GM was po'ed because they were not using social skills. that they were just blazing away and running for the barrens.
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Apr 27 2006, 02:43 PM
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#58
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 26-April 06 Member No.: 8,500 |
It would be pointless for me to restate my opinion on the social system any further, it all just depends on your game.
I'm more annoyed that they don't really care at all about the setting. I put a lot of work into making the world feel more dynamic (at least in my opinion), then the players just want to run around in a world that reacts to them only positivly despite their negative actions. For example, rather than the police actually being competent and searching for evidence they want them to just chase them and always lose them because the driver is just so dang good. |
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Apr 27 2006, 03:09 PM
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#59
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Which is not an unrealistic expectation if their driver has spent so much time becoming so dang good that he uses a car like James Bond does.
Yes, in fact, if they do drive hard and fast and well enough, they should lose the police. They've earned it. Especially if they drive into the barrens, which is frankly probably more dangerous than the police. Apparently they want a world like GTA, where if you can shake the heat long enough the cops go away, because they simply do not care about you. Realistic? No, especially if you've been gunning down cops. Then again, KE, Lone Star, are corporations - vengeance for officers who go down in the line of duty is something you'd expect from a modern-day civil service, but it's not that unrealistic to expect KE and Lonestar not to care - at least, the people in charge of the bottom line won't care. |
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Apr 27 2006, 03:29 PM
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#60
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 976 Joined: 16-September 04 From: Near my daughters, Lansdale PA Member No.: 6,668 |
Or the police wait and as soon as the characters poke their heradso ut of the barrens- BLAM! Is not KE a subsidiary of Ares Macrotechnologies? Does not Ares have a subsidiary that makes MBT's?
The police will not go into the barrens but if the runners are limited to the barrens, their incomes should drop. They expect to sneak up on a run and then dash away guns blazing. But if they are so recognizable that they are fighting their way in, the target will be long gone. |
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Apr 27 2006, 06:04 PM
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#61
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 26-April 06 Member No.: 8,500 |
That's how the car escaped, they just went into the barrens essentially. It seems that the common idea here is that I don't let my players 'get away' with enough stuff. I want to make them actually work for their success. As for the "They've earned it" part, keep in mind that the driver is so good he can win races by buying hits, which kinda takes the "earning" out of success, or is that just me? Yeah, a cop with maybe Skill 2 in driving cars with 3-4 reaction vs someone with wired reflexes 2, a driving skill of 6, and a modified reaction of 9 while driving the car rigged. 17 dice vs... 5? Yeah, by making the police line up nice and neat at a starting line so the car can just burn them off is definatly 'earning' it to me. The simple answer is "don't let them buy hits..." but then that just leads to unnessisary dice rolls. On average, he will do better if he rolls anyways, so making them roll for it is kinda pointless. The players are gods among men, and as such, in order for them to be challenged properly, you kinda have to play the opposition smart, otherwise it's just rediculous. The NPCs know the PCs like to use heavy firepower, so do they go toe-to-toe with them? Well, logically they would use guerilla warfare tactics and hit-and-fade, but because that would be too 'hard' for the players, lets dumb them down a notch. I guess I need to just send in the mooks to die. Suppression fire in the hallway? Lead the charge men! Lets not use our own security system eather to see them setting up an ambush. Bah, you get my point. Is that really what is being suggested here? The worst part is, they wont let me stop being the GM. I have told them time and time again that I don't want to run that kind of game, but they keep pressuring me to do it anyways. I'm not having any fun watching them fail because they don't think things through (there is another player in the group that loves that though... his games are rather annoying to play in, and he has stated several times that he likes to 'watch us suffer for no good reason when he is bored.'). I don't have any fun sitting stroking their egos by letting them get away with whatever because I can't actually let anyone in the world have higher than a logic of 1 and intuition of 1 or the bad guys might actually stand a 'chance' against them. Oh yeah, and god forbid someone in the world be as good as them, like with the court example, as though the players are the only ones who are capable of having more than 5 dice to roll. Court lawyers who went to college and have experiance in the court could never be as good at spinning the truth as some random guy off the street who should have just went into Law to make more money than he ever would shadowrunning and be living the high-life to boot. |
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Apr 27 2006, 06:12 PM
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#62
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Sounds to me like you should stop running. If nobody else wants to take up the mantle of GM, find something else to occupy your game nights. A movie marathon of intelligent criminals might spur some ideas in people.
The point of playing the game is to have fun. If you're not having fun, don't play the game. Sure, some nights you just won't be up to it because you had a bad day or something, but will GM anyway because that's your "job." But if you dislike doing it consistently, don't do it at all. |
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Apr 27 2006, 06:13 PM
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#63
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
I'm pretty sure some KE and Lone Star are going to have more than five dice to throw. That said, getting 17 dice into a single skill is no mean feat - I'd call the sacrifices made to munch his driving ability out that far as "earning it."
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Apr 27 2006, 06:33 PM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 976 Joined: 16-September 04 From: Near my daughters, Lansdale PA Member No.: 6,668 |
The police have riggers, the police can buy hits too. They cna probably be better than the player. what happned if the tires go out on the car?
If these guys are bad enough, the police will go into the barrens after them. They are too much trouble to let go and the police can worry about the rest of the place later. Remember- SINless do not make reports so no one was hurt when the KE carpet bombed the street. |
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Apr 27 2006, 08:25 PM
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#65
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Boring! Boring! Boring! If I want to spend an evening planning, I could just as well stay at my job pulling some UML and ER Diagramms. Some people play RPG's for the action element, not for endless planning and talking sessions. IMHO the GM is the problem here, not the players. Best idea is for the players to find themselves a good GM and ditch the Storyteller! |
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Apr 27 2006, 08:27 PM
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#66
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
If I wanted to spend an evening shooting things, I'd go to the local range.
(Alternately, for the lazy/disinclined/whatever, spend the evening with the current FPS of choice) ~J |
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Apr 27 2006, 10:01 PM
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#67
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 26-April 06 Member No.: 8,500 |
The five dice was referring to the average Lonestar cop in the book. I kinda got miffed there for some reason, so I'm sorry I came off so annoying. For the 'earning' part, your right, I do realize that he made a significant sacrafice to be so good at it, but what am I to do? He gets annoyed no matter what he does. If I make him roll his 16 dice - oops, he got two hits (which has happened an abnormal number of times)... now he is pissed off the rest of the night. I make him buy hits... well, he win's, but it boils down to me saying "yeah, you outrun them," which he realizes is really lame that he is so good at it that he doesn't even have a challenge any more. If I counter overwhelming skill with the overwhelming numbers/logistics of KE, he gets pissed because he can't just wave them off somehow. But wait... He gets annoyed when he does... Do you see why I'm having so many problems?
I've quit this group before, but they came back later on and I figured "sure, I'll give it another shot - and lets try Shadowrun while we are at it." Quiting isn't easy when my best friend knows that you can push me over with a feather to get me to keep running it. I'm just trying to make due with the situation, and I really want to make everyone happy... I just don't want to be the only one not having fun in order to accomplish that. |
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Apr 27 2006, 10:10 PM
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#68
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Then don't let him outrun them. Give him a running gun-battle in a packed tunnel, ala the Matrix's Highway scene. Why can't he outrun them? Well, he can, but if he does, he'll take his jamming field (he does have a jamming device on his hummer o' doom, right?) away from the pursuing police, who will inform by radio of where he is. That would be a Bad Thing, since they could then arrange a roadblock up ahead.
However, about the guy who sold out a really, really good Johnson for 5K? I'd have a contact contact one of the other members of the team, and say that if they ever want work again, the one who did the sell-outting needs to die. You Do Not sell out a Mr. Johnson. And if you do, you don't do it for ONE-THIRTEENTH of what the Mr. Johnson pays! |
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Apr 27 2006, 10:35 PM
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#69
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Monnock: I feel your pain. That's sort of how I felt as a GM after a while.
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Apr 27 2006, 11:38 PM
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#70
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 26-April 06 Member No.: 8,500 |
ShadowDragon8685: Actually, they had jumped out of the hummer earlier on. While going at full speed through one of the many allyways they kept taking, they all jumped out (one of them nearly died from the ordeal), but the car kept on driving via remote. They didn't think to jam the car as they didn't realize that the hacker that was plaguing them was actually in the vehicle.
Also, what you described is far more interesting than what they are willing to put effort into doing. They had an area jammer field, but they didn't activated until well after the assault was under way. They did an awesome job planning that... hah. It was powerful enough to block out the car's radio too. One of them was on of the truck with the intention of breaking into the cab. The mage buffed him all the way up... then he ended up almost being flung off the top of the truck because they decided to shoot the tires out of it while he was on top of it. Whoops. |
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Apr 28 2006, 01:59 AM
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#71
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
on what everyone is looking for, and the actual situation you're in.
Insert same cliches here. :) I just quit GMing a SR game for my group because of this. When the were players, they couldn't seem to remember ever having been a GM. I know they've all GM'd before. I've played in games run by four of the five of them. Yet when they switch to "player" status, you'd think some of them were RPG virgins with bad attitudes. I honestly don't know what to tell you here, because how you should handle that kind of situation depends completely on the dynamic of your individual group. At bare minimum, you guys should discuss what you want out of the game. (oops, I'm starting to repeat my first post)
Apologies, TG. I know you weren't saying it the way I used it, it was merely the wording that I was after. I agree with your post and your position. Bad quote usage on my part.
I don't think that's the idea at all. I think what everyone is getting at is that sometimes you have to accept that your players want something different than what you're providing. Also, this isn't a comment on your GMing ability or style. It's something that every GM faces at one point (often at multiple points). Your choices, boiled down to simplicity, are pretty much "switch GM's" or "switch game style", or "get new players". None of those have an inherently negative connotation. I see that you have reasons preventing you from switching GM's or getting different players. You also seem to have no desire to change up your game. Honestly, I don't know what else to add. Have you talked to the players about this? Maybe you could invite them to read this thread. |
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Apr 28 2006, 02:04 AM
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#72
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 684 Joined: 8-April 06 From: My dorm room Member No.: 8,438 |
I vote yes for talking to the players and no for showing them the thread, because they'd probably take it the wrong way. However, I repeat my recommendation to have them read the C.L.U.E Files, so long as you don't show it to them as a critique of their mistakes. |
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Apr 28 2006, 02:13 AM
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#73
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Meh. If they took it "the wrong way", I'd take that as my cue to find new players. All he's doing is trying to provide them a better game.
Surely they all have maturity+1 hats. |
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Apr 28 2006, 03:03 AM
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#74
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 26-April 06 Member No.: 8,500 |
I try talking to them, but every time I feel like I just don't say the right things or share enough of what I'm thinking. It's easy for me to spill myself out here because I don't have to worry about anyone here taking it personally, but some of the problems are with spefic players and specific things that they do so I try and be vague when I address the issue. I don't think my talking to them is working (at least not how I'm doing it), because even though they all agreed that it was really really stupid to sell out their Johnson in the first run I did for them, they did it again! Not only did they do it again, but they did it for 6x less money!
I took a look at the C.L.U.E. files, and I'm seriously considering printing out a copy of them for my players. Maybe seeing carelessness unfold will let them understand how I see the situation. The worst part is, they really could have gotten away with what they did if the mage hadn't sold out their Johnson! That's what's so frustrating to me, and they should have known this from the last game. Thank you again for the help. |
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Apr 28 2006, 08:15 AM
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#75
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Oh, I'd like to do that too. But there are actually a few countries where that is NOT an option due to local laws. |
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