 SURGErs |
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 Apr 27 2006, 08:30 PM
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#26
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Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98  |
Sorry. Tell you what, next time I don't like something in a game, I won't talk about why. I think this is a policy everyone should follow, really... we'd get an awful lot done around here if people only talked about what they liked in Shadowrun. Negative feedback is overrated, really.
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Apr 27 2006, 08:38 PM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
I'd regard the issue as more along the lines of flat condemnations == bad and counterproductive. Not liking something is fine. For instance, I don't really like most anime, and I fucking hate that furry shit, but I fail to see how it's relevant when discussing Shadowrun. If someone has an anime-style idea and posts a thread about it, check it, and ignore the goddamned thread if you don't like anime in your Shadowrun. Let the people interested in the subject develop the idea further through discussion. Go start a thread about an idea you do like. If you don't have an idea, and you can't find a way to address what you perceive as flaws or undesirable elements in someone else's idea other than saying, "it's bad and I'll never use it", the best solution, as always, is to shut the Hell up and let the grown-ups talk. |
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Apr 27 2006, 08:50 PM
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#28
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
So, I assume you completely missed the part where I said
and the part where I explained that my reason for pulling it out of the game was that it was
when you decided that I've apparently got a problem with anime elements in Shadowrun, and it was time to go all Avenging Otaku on my ass? Informing one of my players that, based on a random die roll, his character was now a catgirl/bone-ridged-mutant/freaky-SURGE-effect-of-not-your-choice was canned because it sounded like about as much fun as informing him that, based on a random die roll, he had just been hit by a car during downtime and needed massive surgery, so he was now part cyborg. The kind of thing that fucks with character concept a little bit, you know? |
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Apr 27 2006, 08:59 PM
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#29
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
the anime comment was not aimed squarely at your shrike30, but generaly thats the argument thats used when the surge effect is dismissed.
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Apr 27 2006, 09:06 PM
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#30
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
It was actually your objection to talking about removing elements of the game that kicked me over into sarcasm mode :P |
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Apr 28 2006, 12:21 AM
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#31
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
and what comment would that be? ah, my reply to you?
that one? its a reply to this bit from you:
and there you use generic terms (people, their) so therefor i do the same (them). your reason for doing it is infact a fresh breath in the saturation of nati-anime comments that used to follow any refrence to SURGE. still; yes we are aware that people dont like SURGE for various reasons. but when people start to talk about it, its because they want to use it. so coming into the thread talking about a person wish for it to "never show up on radar ever again", is not productive to the thread in any way what so ever. we have heard it, and frankly we dont care. its kinda like the debate about how much SR4 "stinks". sorry but given that we sit here and post about ways to use it, we dont think so. and no repetition of the message will change that... |
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Apr 28 2006, 01:57 AM
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#32
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
If you have a problem with random dice rolls then you don't have to use them. You could still lets PCs be Surged by using SURGE traits as Edges/Flaws and having them pay karma/BP. |
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Apr 28 2006, 05:40 PM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 371 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Regina Member No.: 8,145 |
True enough. If you don't like the random-ness, then present it to the characters as say, "Does anyone want this to happen?" If you don't like/want it to happen to PCs then don't, but I don't see a big deal with it happening "in general" in the world.
Keep in mind that the rules say that the SURGE traits must be (mostly) in balance. So, you get free Positive Qualities as well as some Negative ones. I suppose it depends on how much "G" exists in your "RPGs." I know some people are heavy on the "Game" and other are heavy on the "Role Playing." So, whatever. (shrug) |
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Apr 28 2006, 05:50 PM
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#34
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
It was the randomness that really bugged me in terms of "having it happen in game..." I don't like having things that are a theoretically world-spanning random event but the players happen to be immune to.
After the fact, though (in, say, 2070 :P ), having had SURGE happen seems a little more feasible. After all, it's not like people get to choose at birth that they happen to be albino gnome spellcasters, but the characters we see are people who exist in the SR world, and that happen to be player-controlled. Figuring out some sort of BP cost for various SURGE abilities in SR4 would be a decent way of adding some variety. |
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Apr 28 2006, 06:07 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 371 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Regina Member No.: 8,145 |
The "value" listed beside each of the SURGE affects in Year of the Comet should be easy to transfer to a BP cost for SR4.
I understand where you're coming from. A lot of players do not like anything (of significance) to happen to their characters without prior knowledge and their consent. This leads to some really "gamey" decisions by the player ("I'm not going to get that cyberware now because I'm going to buy a SURGE affect that does it for me...") that are not particularily reaslistic. "Real" is sometimes having life-changing events thrust upon you without warning (like SURGE). Some players see this as a fun RP challenge, others will just get resentful. For example, I had an event in one of my player's lives once where I had him "die." He had been going along and had made some rivals that were (unknown to him) quite well connected. But he was your typical cocky Troll ganger. So, one time I had solo session with him where he was ambushed. The Star gunned him down in spectacular fashion (with a Citymaster-mounted LMG) and left him for dead. I had an NPC he had previously befriended take him in and pay for his treatment. The fallout was he lost an arm and a leg (literally), but I gave him Alphaware cyberlimbs for free. As a story side-effect, all his enemies assumed him "dead." I told him to pick a new street name (which he did), and then he began plotting his revenge. It turned into a great side plot that "hooked" him further into the game/universe. However, some players would resent this "death" being thrust upon them. It's up to the GM to judge. |
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Apr 29 2006, 08:21 AM
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#36
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,000 Joined: 17-November 05 From: Halifax, Canada Member No.: 7,975 |
I converted SURGE for 4th Edition much the same way as I SR converted Edges and Flaws into Qualities. As the events of the comet happened in the past, my characters have the choice of whether they're character underwent transformation or not, after creation there are no other chances for it to happen. SURGE is a 5 bp subrace cost plus the cost of positive/negative SURGE qualities to a max of 35 bp each.
Before the player goes all anime-craze on me, I have them read the mechanics, implications, and social implications of what SURGE will have done, and will do to their character in game play. If they expect they'll be treated like a cute cuddly furry, I have them re-read the social implications. I haven't changed the SR world to be anime friendly, if anything, it's just gotten a heck of a lot harder on the character, cause they will stick out in a crowd. It's like giving yourself the distinctive style flaw - and can have some interesting role-play side effects. I had one player, mind you, who tried to take it too far... wanted to be a humanoid cat, complete with rear-bending knees and ears on the top of his head. I reminded him that while changed, he's still metahuman, and his form isn't that much different than anyone elses.. and besides, there's no allowances in the SURGE rules for such drastic changes to exist. I suggested he may want to be a shapeshifter rather than a changeling and in the end went for that variant instead after reading the rules. (In the end he never did make it to game due to scheduling conflicts, but oh well, his loss) In the end it all boils down to character preference, whether the GM will allow it, and whether the player can realistically stay in character along the SR theme. In a world where toxic insect shamans exist, I don't see any problems with someone suddenly growing a tail, fur over their bodies, becoming a cyclops or having gills. Half of which you can get with cosmetic or cyberware modification by 2070 anyway. |
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Apr 29 2006, 09:22 AM
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#37
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
SURGE allowed Satyr legs. |
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Apr 29 2006, 12:23 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 28-March 06 Member No.: 8,412 |
I won't repeat at length again what others have already said before me, but I consider that SURGE is one of those aspects in the game that can be used or discarded as one pleases, depending on what style of game one is after. When used right, it can add an interesting spin to a game. SURGE arose due to *chaotic* magic, and there isn't really anything anime-ish about it unless a player or GM wants it, and even then it's the GM's decision on whether to allow it to get that way if they want to include it. It also depends on what year the game is being set in.
One of my SR characters was initially inspired by a VG character to an extent, and after chatting with the GM we decided to go with SURGE as the way to give the character the unusual twist that I was after. Then I realised that my character bore a few physical similarities to a different, anime character at times. Despite the source of the inspiration, I don't want to play the character in an anime style; if I wanted to do that, I'd go play BESM. SR is a *fantasy* game as much as it's a cyberpunk game, and that means accepting that there are going to be strange magical creatures wandering around. Magic needs an amount of chaos to its order to balance out. |
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 Apr 29 2006, 12:34 PM
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#39
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,608 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
There might be people out there who use cosmetic surgery to look like their anime heroes/heroines (or like cute furry things). :eek:
Bye Thanee |
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Apr 29 2006, 04:13 PM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 142 Joined: 29-March 06 From: Quebec, Canada Member No.: 8,415 |
I can see some sick and rich pimps hunting for... Interesting-looking SURGED women and men to cather some perverted and depravated rich ones. (or using magic and tecnology to 'modify' a 'normal' guy/girl... Against their wishes, probably).
"Mister Keitaro? I think that we found one that may interest you..." See how SURGE could end up something fitting, dark and ugly-faced? And of course, since it,s random, some poor sod may end up looking or being something that is an horror to some groups, like a devilish-like one in a fiundamentalist region as the example I used. |
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May 1 2006, 11:38 AM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 172 Joined: 11-April 06 From: In cover, with good line of sight Member No.: 8,451 |
My character that has SURGEd was done by the ref via a secret dice roll. He rolled for each of the players in turn, and it was my characters unlucky day...(He was sub one essence) The role-play aspect was wonderful. He knew enough about paranormal animals to know that only a few critters were 'blind' and could see astral, so he thought he was turning into a ghoul - when the pain from his skin flaking off was light so he was conscious. He also ended up sitting in the bath full of water to try and allieviate the itchy flaky skin too. And all this started with a guy with a cold brushing past him in the street, and my character thought it might be a cold coming on... When he woke up from having finished the transformation, it turned out that he was dual natured, with altered skin colour (blue)(I was soo cheesed off at the ref, as I had only just finished drawing him...), retractable claws and a couple of other bits that I can't remember without the sheet in frount of me. He has been given some stick about it from various corners, but he just shrugs it off. I think SURGE is a nice effect, and it would have been nice to see some sort of rules for it in the main book, as it had already happened, but I can see why they didn't put it in, as then people would have wanted all the other meta-types put in as well, and that leads to an enormous book that costs a fortune... The way my ref has dealt with it, as he has converted the character over from SR3 to SR4 is that as it was sheer dumb luck and not character choice is he just gave the character the 'freebie' that is being a changeling, and all that comes with it... |
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May 1 2006, 05:14 PM
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#42
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that would be a valid point if Shadowrun were an anime game. it's not--or at least, it wasn't, until SURGE. moreover, the whole SURGE thing was supposed to jack up metahuman tensions and bigotry. the books say it did that, but other than saying "oh noes teh rasism!!1!11!!", nothing ever really came out of it. so, instead of making the setting grittier and dirtier, it gave us catgirls. yay. |
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May 1 2006, 05:22 PM
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#43
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 23-February 04 From: Honolulu, HI Member No.: 6,099 |
Heh, yeah I guess when you literally could become a gun-bunny, it got a little off :)
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May 1 2006, 05:35 PM
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#44
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i saw one guy create Big Bird.
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May 1 2006, 07:43 PM
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#45
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
You're telling me that Big Bird resorting to running the shadows in order to make a decent wage isn't gritty?
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May 1 2006, 07:52 PM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 588 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,316 |
One of my players, a troll, wound up through random rolling with pink skin and purple fur and red eyes.... boy did he stand out. He got in return a few abilities the only one I remember off hand was the scent ability. I don't really see what the problem with surge is and would like new rules for it. He was the only on of all the characters who wound up surging.
As far as anime, I haven't watched much of it (just the mainstream stuff.. akira, princess monanoke, etc.) and I son't really see how the surge makes sr into an anime game. I definitely thought of the cat girl as having an erect feline body (ears at top of head etc. |
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May 1 2006, 09:01 PM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 371 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Regina Member No.: 8,145 |
The other option would be to just remove the particular SURGE effects that you don't like. It was also my understanding from reading YotC that drastic effects like the "complete cat" transformation were rare among the "changlings."
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May 1 2006, 09:10 PM
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#48
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
*shrug* watch more anime. or don't. either way, a lot of people view SURGE as an incursion of catgirls with pastel hair and cute little tails. if you don't, sweet--have fun with it. but SURGE irks the hell out of me. i mean, come on. a marsupial pouch!?
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May 1 2006, 09:13 PM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 19-January 04 Member No.: 5,992 |
It's the perfect place to put your Puzzler. Or possibly a club sandwich.
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May 1 2006, 09:17 PM
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#50
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
mar. supial. pouch.
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