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> SR 4 Weapons Questions
BnF95
post May 1 2006, 09:06 AM
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Okay, one of my returning (SR2&SR3) players just pointed out some inconsistencies.

a.) The AK-97 Carbine has a detachable folding stock which, if extended gives 1 point of recoil compensation whereas its big brother, the AK-97 Assault Rifle has a built in stock and no recoil compensation.

b.) The Remington Roomsweeper has a damage code of 5P and armor penetration of -1 normally, when it switches to flechette (i.e. shot), it's damage should go up to 7P(f) and the AP should become +1. Instead, the damage code is now 7P(f) and the AP is +2 (net armor penetration loss of +3).

c.) Do the damage codes of weapons have any form of equivalency to calibers and/or bullet size? Assuming that the standard SMG fires pistol rounds (like today's SMGs do) then why is their base damage code 5P? Shouldn't it be 4P?

I was wondering if anyone else may have ... perhaps, made a modified weapons table?

Oh, yeah, before I forget:

d.) What about all the weapons of "yesteryears?" Ares Predator I, II, & III, Browning Max-Power & Ultra-Power etc. etc. How does one convert the old weapons?
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MYST1C
post May 1 2006, 09:29 AM
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QUOTE (BnF95)
a.) The AK-97 Carbine has a detachable folding stock which, if extended gives 1 point of recoil compensation whereas its big brother, the AK-97 Assault Rifle has a built in stock and no recoil compensation.

For some reason SR has had a rule for years that adding a stock to a weapon that lacks one or unfolding and using a collapsible stock gives recoil compensation while permamently built-in stocks don't.
My personal house rule is that any type of stock gives 1 point of recoil compensation if the player clearly declares he's firing from the shoulder (and the character is able to). Firing from the hip gets no recoil compensation.

QUOTE
c.) Do the damage codes of weapons have any form of equivalency to calibers and/or bullet size? Assuming that the standard SMG fires pistol rounds (like today's SMGs do) then why is their base damage code 5P? Shouldn't it be 4P?

Please no "SR damage code = RL caliber" discussion! (Although it's better in SR4 then ever before.)
Assuming the same ammo, damage differences between SMGs and pistols could be explained with SMGs usually having longer barrels resulting in higher bullet speed and greater precision.

QUOTE
d.) What about all the weapons of "yesteryears?" Ares Predator I, II, & III, Browning Max-Power & Ultra-Power etc. etc. How does one convert the old weapons?

Takes the nearest SR4 equivalent and copy the stats.
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Butterblume
post May 1 2006, 09:58 AM
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a)
It's nowhere even mentioned in the rules, but it seems that stocks give 1 point RC for weapons up to submachineguns. For heavier weapons, a stock isn't enough, you need an additional shockpad.

Only the Ingram White Knight doesn't fit, there is no mention of a shockpad in the description (I think they just forgot, though).
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mintcar
post May 1 2006, 11:13 AM
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d) It's easy when it comes to the predators. All the different versions have had the same damage code, the new ones just have more built in features. Strip the features and you have a Predator I or II.
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TBRMInsanity
post May 1 2006, 01:44 PM
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QUOTE
Firing from the hip gets no recoil compensation.


I would reconsider that house rule. I know from personal experience that it is easier to compensate weapon recoil when firing from the hip, the down side is you have no accuracy. This is where smartlink comes in. The German military has developed a "smart gun" system that allows troops to fire from the hip but maintain the acuracy of firing from the sholder. The system plugs into their night vision scope and shows the line of fire of the weapon.
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James McMurray
post May 1 2006, 02:38 PM
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QUOTE (TBRMInsanity)
I know from personal experience that it is easier to compensate weapon recoil when firing from the hip, the down side is you have no accuracy.

Would that translate to -1 recoil but +1 from lack of accuracy?
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Thanee
post May 1 2006, 02:44 PM
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QUOTE (BnF95 @ May 1 2006, 11:06 AM)
c.) Do the damage codes of weapons have any form of equivalency to calibers and/or bullet size? Assuming that the standard SMG fires pistol rounds (like today's SMGs do) then why is their base damage code 5P? Shouldn't it be 4P?

Well, you can fill entire forums with replies to that question alone. :D

I'm rather far from being a weapon's expert, but isn't a modern day SMG ammo more akin to that of the equivalent of a SR heavy pistol (i.e. 9mm or somesuch)?

Of course, there's still the question why heavy pistols have more armor penetration than SMGs then... ;)

Bye
Thanee
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James McMurray
post May 1 2006, 03:12 PM
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Well, there goes the thread, buried beneath the onsuing onslaught of RL gun discussions. :)
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Austere Emancipa...
post May 1 2006, 03:17 PM
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QUOTE (Thanee)
I'm rather far from being a weapon's expert, but isn't a modern day SMG ammo more akin to that of the equivalent of a SR heavy pistol (i.e. 9mm or somesuch)?

If a 9x19mm is a "heavy pistol", then I wonder why anyone would even think about using a "light pistol" for defense.

In the modern world, even without orks and trolls, a 9x19mm is generally considered the least powerful acceptable defensive handgun caliber. IRL, most SMGs are chambered for the same cartridges as the majority of combat handguns: 9x19mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP.

QUOTE (BnF95)
c.) Do the damage codes of weapons have any form of equivalency to calibers and/or bullet size?

I guess I'm not allowed to go into specifics, so you'll just have to settle for "NO!"
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Moon-Hawk
post May 1 2006, 04:50 PM
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All together now:
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BnF95
post May 1 2006, 05:03 PM
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QUOTE (Thanee)
I'm rather far from being a weapon's expert, but isn't a modern day SMG ammo more akin to that of the equivalent of a SR heavy pistol (i.e. 9mm or somesuch)?

I've never actually considered a 9mm as a "heavy" round for a pistol. That would be 10mm up to .50AE (Ruger Super Warhawk???)
QUOTE (M :nuyen: $tic)
Takes the nearest SR4 equivalent and copy the stats.

I've tried ... for example
CODE

SR3E Weapon                  Dmg
Ares Viper Slivergun         9S(f)
Remington Roomsweeper        9S(f)
Colt Manhunter               9M
Ares Predator                9M
Ruger Super Warhawk         10M
SR4E Weapon                  Dmg
Ares Viper Slivergun         8P(f)
Remington Roomsweeper        7P(f)
Colt Manhunter               5P
Ares Predator                5P
Ruger Super Warhawk          6P

So a 9S(f) weapon can either be 8P(f) or a 7P(f) while a 9M is equal to a 5P and a 10M becomes a 7P. I'm not even sure how the math works there, but based on melee weapons it seems that:
Sword (SR3) is [STR+2]M and Sword (SR4) is [STR/2]+3P
Katana (SR3) is [STR+3]M and Katana (SR4) is [STR/2]+3P but with and AP of -1.
So it seems that the 1 point of damage difference between sword and katana is translated ... loosely to the AP bonus of the katana.
In which case I'm totally lost as far as the damage code translation between SR3 and SR4 is. Can anyone help?
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James McMurray
post May 1 2006, 05:05 PM
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I don't think there is a damage translation formula. It looks to me like each weapon was evaluated seperately and given a damage value and AP rating based on that.
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Thanee
post May 1 2006, 05:08 PM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ May 1 2006, 05:17 PM)
If a 9x19mm is a "heavy pistol", then I wonder why anyone would even think about using a "light pistol" for defense.

Well, I don't really know why anyone in SR would use a light pistol, 'cept for style. ;)

If you want concealability you go for a hold-out, if you want reasonable concealability but not too much lack in firepower, you go for a heavy pistol (or even SMG). If you don't care about concealability you pick the biggest you can handle (usually an AR). :D

In my naive view, I would say a light pistol is something like a .22 or .38, while those 9x19mm and .45 ACP are heavy pistols (they are called 'Gro▀kaliber-Pistolen' (big/heavy/large caliber pistols) here, that certainly doesn't give me the impression of a light pistol). Stuff like the .50 Desert Eagle would be ultra-heavy pistols then (not really a standard category), similar to the Ruger Super Warhawk (which I would think is probably equivalent to a .44 magnum or maybe those .50 revolvers).

When comparing with SMGs, maybe what I call 'heavy pistol' here would be some sort of 'medium pistol' and the heavy pistols are a bit bigger than that (i.e. 10mm). Then there simply would be no category for RLs most typical pistols (at least from my point of view those 9x19mm and .45 ACP and so on are the most common (semi-automatic) handgun calibers).

QUOTE
IRL, most SMGs are chambered for the same cartridges as the majority of combat handguns: 9x19mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP.


So, apart from the question what RL caliber would be equivalent to a SR heavy pistol, that at least was right. Thanks! :)


Of course, the rules for damage codes are not really realistic, I guess everyone knows that. But they are certainly based on RL calibers somewhat (with some flaws, naturally). :)

Bye
Thanee
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Thanee
post May 1 2006, 05:10 PM
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QUOTE (BnF95)
I've never actually considered a 9mm as a "heavy" round for a pistol.

I would see it as the low-end of heavy (there are many more calibers IRL, than in SR, so many must be packed together into a single weapon category (which are probably losely based on calibers at least (see above)) apparantly).

Bye
Thanee
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Thanee
post May 1 2006, 05:14 PM
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QUOTE (BnF95)
Can anyone help?

It seems like most weapons in a category now have a standard damage code.

Hold-Out 4P
Light Pistol 4P
Heavy Pistol 5P -1AP
Ultra-Heavy Pistol 6P -2AP
SMG 5P
AR 6P -1AP (which apparantly is a bit low, but that's what they ended up with)

Bye
Thanee
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BnF95
post May 1 2006, 05:17 PM
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Thanks for the info guys (special thanks to Thanee for bearing with me.) :D
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Austere Emancipa...
post May 1 2006, 05:32 PM
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QUOTE (Thanee)
(they are called 'Gro▀kaliber-Pistolen' (big/heavy/large caliber pistols) here, that certainly doesn't give me the impression of a light pistol)

Is it standard usage in Deutsch to call a .38 Special or .380 ACP "Gro▀kaliber" too? In any case, that does absolutely nothing to categorize combat handgun calibers, they're nearly all "Gro▀kaliber", from the wimpiest holdouts (like this), through the standard concealed carry pieces (like this), all the way up to chunky large-frame dedicated combat sidearms (like this).

QUOTE (Thanee)
But they are certainly based on RL calibers somewhat (with some flaws, naturally). :)

They might have given some consideration to real firearms, but it's quite obvious where ever the reality and their idea of playability were in any kind of disagreement they went with the latter. It's not a question of flaws, they could have checked and corrected those all too easily with people like Raygun around, they choose to ignore stuff like that. Which is fine, of course, if you aren't particularly interested in realism.
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Thanee
post May 1 2006, 05:51 PM
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As far as I can tell, .38 is called 'Kleinkaliber' (small caliber) here.

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Thanee
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Austere Emancipa...
post May 1 2006, 05:55 PM
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So "Gro▀kaliber" basically translates to "an adequate combat handgun caliber" and "Kleinkaliber" translates to "inadequate".
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Big D
post May 1 2006, 06:03 PM
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I'd load any light or hold-out pistol with stick-n-shock unless I anticipate going into a situation (I'm sure there is one, somewhere) where 4P beats 6S(e).

On the SMG issue, as others have mentioned, a SMG has a longer barrel, enabling fuller powder burn (more velocity) and better shot placement. Hence the 5P.

Let's try to stay away from real rounds; there are just too many variables involved (for example, most military folks gripe about 9mm FMJ, but some of those same folks have no problem with 9mm HP for put-down). The damage codes seem to be very clearly just arbitrarily assigned for play-balance.

I would translate damage codes from SR3 based on gun type--with the reduced numeric DV, lots of guns that had slight advantages in one way or another are now going to be mathematically identical to the others.

TBRM, do you have a link to that German gadget? I've seen concept drawings for a shoulder-mounted ball-and-socket design here, but that was years ago and I don't think anything ever came of it.
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Thanee
post May 1 2006, 06:10 PM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ May 1 2006, 07:55 PM)
So "Gro▀kaliber" basically translates to "an adequate combat handgun caliber" and "Kleinkaliber" translates to "inadequate".

LOL, that might be. :)

I think over here people don't really think of weapons in terms of how useful they are for self-defense, since they are not used that way normally. They are more for sports (apart from the obvious uses for police, military, security and criminal subjects, of course), and I wouldn't be surprised if those terms came from that direction.

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Thanee
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Butterblume
post May 1 2006, 06:21 PM
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QUOTE (Big D)
TBRM, do you have a link to that German gadget?  I've seen concept drawings for a shoulder-mounted ball-and-socket design here, but that was years ago and I don't think anything ever came of it.

I thinkt it's a myth ;). (but i will accept confirmatory evidence :D).

click here to see a scary rifle caliber (scroll a little down)
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Shrike30
post May 1 2006, 07:29 PM
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QUOTE (Big D)
I'd load any light or hold-out pistol with stick-n-shock unless I anticipate going into a situation (I'm sure there is one, somewhere) where 4P beats 6S(e).

Trying to shoot through something would probably be one of those situations. Glass, car door, interior wall...
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TheOneRonin
post May 1 2006, 07:39 PM
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QUOTE (Butterblume)
QUOTE (Big D)
TBRM, do you have a link to that German gadget?  I've seen concept drawings for a shoulder-mounted ball-and-socket design here, but that was years ago and I don't think anything ever came of it.

I thinkt it's a myth ;). (but i will accept confirmatory evidence :D).

click here to see a scary rifle caliber (scroll a little down)
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hobgoblin
post May 1 2006, 07:48 PM
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gah, never mind...
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