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> Warding cost and my mage
Monnock
post May 1 2006, 03:52 PM
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I have two different questions, and rather than posting two times, I figured I would just ask them both in this one thread.

When I read the warding section, I interpreted that a mage charged 100 :nuyen: per hour for the time that they spent warding, however my friend feels that it is 100 :nuyen: per hour that the ward is up. I find the second interpretation rather... excessive, however I could be wrong.

My second question is this: My friend was in a warded area (Force 5) with four random sustained spell effects running, so he had -8 to all his magic rolls and everyone else had +5 dice to resist his spells. He hit a mage with what was presumably a force 10 spell (he loves never telling me anything... ever. Not even net hits unless I pry it out of him), which he did two times. The first time it failed, the second time, somehow he succeeded. Note that the mage scored 5 hits to resist the attack and the player didn't use edge.

Here is my question for this, when I confronted him about how he could possibly sustain 4 spell effects and blast a mage within a force 5 warded area and still blow him away by saying "Ok, he dies." His retort was that the street samurai could do the same (though I should have pointed out that he couldn't do the same with a -8 penalty to his dice rolls) and that he was 'really specialized' in blowing things away (I fail to see why +2 dice negates -8 ). Not only that, but he blasted the mage two times. The first time failed, the second time he passed. Keeping with his annominity, he never said what his phsyical track was at.

Whats worse, he slaughters force 1 (by binding and forcing them to drain their force to sustain them) spirits to buff the entire party with invisibility, armor buffs, initiative pass buffs, ect. It's fun having a character with four initiative passes that is always invisible and levitating 24/7. I'm worried about him even gaining a little bit more power, just because right now he seems a bit rediculous as it is.

I'm mostly just overwhelmed with how to deal with him, as with most settings "mages are rare" which equates to, the party mage is better than anything short of a major organization. He can pretty much kill off average mages (ones that hover on or a little over 3) in one shot without any stun damage, and in a pinch, he can blow away a mage with 5s in everything in one shot, even with a -8 penalty to spellcasting, the mage having a level 5 ward, and the mage having several points in counter-spelling.
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James McMurray
post May 1 2006, 04:12 PM
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Wards: that's a per hour spent erecting the ward price.

Succeeded on second try: I wouldn't trust this player with a 10+ pole given what little I know about him from your description. A few things:

1) Whenever he casts something, make sure he says at what force. Enforce this strictly. If he doesn't tell you, it's cast at force 1.

2) Make sure you can always see his rolls. Getting 6 hits with -8 dice is possible, but not likely unless you have a high dice pool.

3) Have spirits come looking for him. Torturing force 1 spirits, which is essentially what forcing them to burn out through sustaining amounts to, is likely to eventually attract the ire of a free spirit or two.

4) Always know what his physical and stun tracks are at. When he soaks, look at the dice. You'll know how many hits he needs based on his force, and if he somehow manages to roll 3 sixes but still soak a force 10 mana ball completely you'll know something's up.

"Mages are rare" does not automatically mean that the party mage is king of the hill. Rare doesn't mean weak.

Don't accuse the guy of cheating outright, because maybe he really is just lucky. But if you're watching die rolls and see some funky things happening you've got two options: First, you can confront him and tell him to cut it out or go away. Two, you can cheat right back. If he constantly gets two more hits then he rolled, the opposition should constantly get three more hits then they rolled.
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mfb
post May 1 2006, 04:13 PM
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i'm pretty sure it's 100Y per hour it takes to create the ward, but i could be wrong. as for the other problem... you need to put this player on a chain and jerk it some. you need a) a copy of his sheet, and b) to see every die roll he makes, because the player is cheating. it sucks, but you're basically going to have to take care of every aspect of bookkeeping for this guy for a while.

also, i think you may have misinterpreted how wards work. wards don't create a field inside which it's hard to cast magic; they create a wall that is hard to cast magic through.

as far as the spirits go, i think you again need to take control of the player's bookkeeping. every one of those spirits he binds costs 500Y. you should start keeping track of when he actually binds these spirits; remember, they can only spell bind for a single day. you might also make him limit the number of hours per day he can spend binding spirits (it takes an hour per point of force); normal people don't spend twelve hours in the basement playing with magical paraphernalia.
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James McMurray
post May 1 2006, 04:17 PM
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QUOTE (mfb)
normal people don't spend twelve hours in the basement playing with magical paraphernalia.

I wouldn't limit him to lower than 12 hours. It might not be normal, but I could definitely see it as a prep for a run (when the money makes it worthwhile of course). A fatigue based limit of 12 hours might be ok.
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Monnock
post May 1 2006, 04:25 PM
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QUOTE
also, i think you may have misinterpreted how wards work. wards don't create a field inside which it's hard to cast magic; they create a wall that is hard to cast magic through.


If that is true then a big sigh. That was how I interpreted it, but he was telling me he could ward a 250 meter volume. He keeps going on about how corporations could use mana-lodges for improvised mana-barriers, which goes completly against what a mana-lodge is supposed to be.

Seriously, this guy is being a pain. So far he has missenterpreted every single thing he has told me about magic. He neglected to tell me that for invisibility, if he doesn't score a number of net hits higher than its technological threshold, then technology can see them, for example. He has constantly been the kind of player that will always missread something to his advantage, and he loves playing a mage which has the most things to misinterpret.

I wouldn't be so hard on this guy if he didn't complain all the time about how 'none of us actually read the book...' Oh, and of course he has claimed to have 'read the entire book' and that he makes the claim that he has 'photographic memory,' even though I am constantly having to double check everything he does.

Meh, that's what I figured, I think I may just litterally watch over his shoulder from now on. As for the lucky comment, it is true, he is generally a very high roller. For the one shot kill that he completely resisted (which was likely a force five spell), he rolled 6 hits out of 6 which I actually saw him roll.

He realizes that it only is sustained for one day, but he doesn't seem to care about blowing all his money on the ritual components to keep binding them and draining them away. I'm forcing him to keep track of the number of spirits he has killed, and I'm wondering when the spirits should start to act against him.
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Aaron
post May 1 2006, 04:45 PM
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QUOTE (Monnock)
He realizes that it only is sustained for one day, but he doesn't seem to care about blowing all his money on the ritual components to keep binding them and draining them away. I'm forcing him to keep track of the number of spirits he has killed, and I'm wondering when the spirits should start to act against him.

If I was the GM, I'd give him a Spirit Bane quality for free. Maybe several. Maybe have some spirits start using their Edge against his binding attempt (admittedly pitiful, but it's something).
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James McMurray
post May 1 2006, 04:45 PM
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Maybe give him a notoriety rating just for the spirit world, and increase it by one for every 5 or 10 spirits he kills. When he summons a spirit make a notoriety check for him (notoriety + spirit's force). If he gets a hit the spirit resists as much as possible. For bound spirits that would basically just involve them rolling their edge to resist the binding. Force 1 spirits wouldn't be that big of a deal probably, but later when he tries to summon higher force ones it could slap him with some heavy drain. Also have them do everything they can (within their intelligence rating) to twist his commands if they make any hits on the notoriety test. For example if he commands them to attack someone and the spirit has an AoE effect, it should try and catch him in the area.

Once a month make a notoriety check for him. The number of hits times two is the force of the spirit that comes gunning for him. The first couple will probably be weak enough that he nukes them into obkivion, but as his notoriety grows so will his enemies, and as their force grows their intelligence will also grow.

And whatever you do, DO NOT give him karma awards for defeating the spirits that come looking for him, as that will just give him a reason to keep doing it.
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bustedkarma
post May 1 2006, 05:43 PM
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It sucks having one bad apple.
Have you tried beating the stupid out of him yet?

I'd say the Spirit Bane Quality is a gimme at this point, but if I was a GM, and had a player trying to be as subversive as this guy is, I'd go to work on him. If he's in the Barrens, I'd let him "bump" into a pissed off Free Spirit, something old and mean. All Wendigos are Awakend and evil, and cannibals, and that always makes for a trippy ass Run. Disappering Slum Residents, Tribe of Wedigos, bad magic. If they are doing Corp Runs, use Ultrasound, and have some sort of Magical Research Facility on the Campus. Yeah, Mages ARE rare, but there is enough of them around that entire schools exist to train them, and courses of study

I despise your player. I hate guys who try to manipulate rules. I hate guys that cook spirits. I hate guys who think they are THE Uber Mage....and I mucho hate the guy that spams Levitate/Invisibility on his whole crew 24/7.

/rant off
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Synner
post May 1 2006, 05:46 PM
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QUOTE (Monnock)
QUOTE
also, i think you may have misinterpreted how wards work. wards don't create a field inside which it's hard to cast magic; they create a wall that is hard to cast magic through.

If that is true then a big sigh. That was how I interpreted it, but he was telling me he could ward a 250 meter volume. He keeps going on about how corporations could use mana-lodges for improvised mana-barriers, which goes completly against what a mana-lodge is supposed to be.

mfb is correct. Wards are a type of mana barrier that only affects magic passing through it. They are designed to keep out (or keep in) astral forms not make magic harder inside.

Spirit Bane seems particularly appropriate for this guy, and you should have spirits start using their Edge against him whenever he summons or binds a new one. (You might also consider looking up Tutor in the original Threats sb)

Also note that:
QUOTE (SR4 @ p.179)
One service is used up for each period equal to the spiritís Force in Combat Turns that it sustains the spell. A Force 3 spirit that owes two services, for example, can only sustain a spell for 6 Combat Turns.

A Force 1 or 2 spirit is going to sustain spells for very short times before vanishing. Even if the guy rolls 5 hits for services against each Force 1 Spirit (that would require an average 15 dice) sustaining only lasts for 1 (force) x 5 (hits) = 5 Turns = 15 seconds worth of sustaining from each spirit.
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vipox
post May 1 2006, 06:04 PM
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I would go for the Sprit Bane, but put an extra evil twist on it.

His constant use of the burning out sprits, starts to become an addicition, he starts to fail rolls if he doesn't burn a sprit in this way, etc.. But it becomes worst as he finds that force 1 sprits just aren't cutting it any more, he needs more of a rush, so he has to start summoning stronger and stronger sprits.

This plus this kind of burning of sprits whould make him a walking background count. As suggested Wendigos would love to snack on this sadistic moron. Remember that Wendigos have a "taste" for evil people more than good people for some reason. And as I remember convert other humans to being canibals and then feast on the canibals themselves. You could run a good story arc as one converted him to the "dark" side.

That or just have a drop bear get him :)

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James McMurray
post May 1 2006, 06:13 PM
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QUOTE (Synner)
A Force 1 or 2 spirit is going to sustain spells for very short times before vanishing. Even if the guy rolls 5 hits for services against each Force 1 Spirit (that would require an average 15 dice) sustaining only lasts for 1 (force) x 5 (hits) = 5 Turns = 15 seconds worth of sustaining from each spirit.

He's using the extended sustaining option, which burns force at a rate of (IIRC) 1 per day.
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Synner
post May 1 2006, 06:19 PM
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QUOTE (James McMurray @ May 1 2006, 06:13 PM)
QUOTE (Synner @ May 1 2006, 12:46 PM)
A Force 1 or 2 spirit is going to sustain spells for very short times before vanishing. Even if the guy rolls 5 hits for services against each Force 1 Spirit (that would require an average 15 dice) sustaining only lasts for 1 (force) x 5 (hits) = 5 Turns = 15 seconds worth of sustaining from each spirit.

He's using the extended sustaining option, which burns force at a rate of (IIRC) 1 per day.

Okay, in which case it actually called Spell Binding.
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Geekkake
post May 1 2006, 06:48 PM
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Nevermind watching him. Nevermind adding Negative Qualities he won't play. Just kick him outta the group. It's obvious that he's the worst kind of player, and he's just gonna screw things up for the rest of your group. Drop an orbital cow on his character, tell him to get the fuck outta your group, and all will be serene.
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hyzmarca
post May 1 2006, 07:11 PM
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QUOTE (Monnock)
QUOTE
also, i think you may have misinterpreted how wards work. wards don't create a field inside which it's hard to cast magic; they create a wall that is hard to cast magic through.


If that is true then a big sigh. That was how I interpreted it, but he was telling me he could ward a 250 meter volume. He keeps going on about how corporations could use mana-lodges for improvised mana-barriers, which goes completly against what a mana-lodge is supposed to be.

The volume refers to the maximum amount of space a ward can enclose. A ward must be three-deminsional to work properly because astral beings are capable of unrestricted movement in all three dimensions.

A lodge does act as a ward, yhes, but it is cheaper and easier just to use actual wards.



QUOTE (vipox)
This plus this kind of burning of sprits whould make him a walking background count. As suggested Wendigos would love to snack on this sadistic moron. Remember that Wendigos have a "taste" for evil people more than good people for some reason. And as I remember convert other humans to being canibals and then feast on the canibals themselves. You could run a good story arc as one converted him to the "dark" side.


Wendigos don't have a taste for "evil" people. Wendigos have a taste for cannibals. If he has been eating people as part of his magic rituals then he'd probably attract one.
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vipox
post May 1 2006, 07:28 PM
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They have a taste for "corrupted" sprits, I would rule that torturing spirts in this way would be the same as eating humans. Both should be seen as morally repugnant, expect in the most extreme circumstances.

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fool
post May 1 2006, 07:32 PM
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Another thing that I'd like to point out is that you as the gm need to know the magic rules better. You shouldn't be depending on him to tell you that he needs a certain number of hits to be invisible to technological devices.
So "he's read the entire book" so what, so have I and I'll bet anything that we would have very different interpretations of what various rules mean. Enforce your rules, don't depend on hinm to tell you what the rules are.
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John_Wicker
post May 1 2006, 07:33 PM
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QUOTE
Here is my question for this, when I confronted him about how he could possibly sustain 4 spell effects and blast a mage within a force 5 warded area and still blow him away by saying "Ok, he dies." His retort was that the street samurai could do the same (though I should have pointed out that he couldn't do the same with a -8 penalty to his dice rolls) and that he was 'really specialized' in blowing things away (I fail to see why +2 dice negates -8 ). Not only that, but he blasted the mage two times. The first time failed, the second time he passed. Keeping with his annominity, he never said what his phsyical track was at.


Okay. I assume you're the GM here, and if that's the case, I'd suggest you take the following steps.

1) Ask him for a page reference for every "fact" he recites to you, and double-check all of his "info".
2) Tell him that if you ask for a piece of information, you expect to get it. Period.
3) Ask him for the number of successes he rolls. Then YOU tell him what happens.

You're the GM. You are in charge of interpreting the rules, and telling the story. Not this guy. If he wants to run a game, tell him to have at it (on his own time and not yours of course :-)
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mfb
post May 1 2006, 07:33 PM
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where is the stuff about wendigos preferring to eat certain types of people coming from?
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vipox
post May 1 2006, 07:44 PM
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pg 294 4th Ed

QUOTE
  Wendigos feed on the fl esh of humans and metahumans,
from which they also derive psychic sustenance. Typically
they induce victims to participate in a cannibalistic feast. Th is
creates an apparent psychological
dependence in the
victim, who then helps the
wendigo in spreading its
habit, thus creating a secret
society of cannibals. Th e
members of the groups are
unaware that they ultimately
will become meals for the wendigo, which seems to prefer
the Essence of such corrupted spirits.


wendigos rock :)
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bustedkarma
post May 1 2006, 08:27 PM
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Wendigos are EVIL. I'm working on sort of a transition-campaign now, where the antagonist is a Wendigo. The group hasn't seen much in terms of Awakened Critters, so this seems like a good time to do it.

My group is leaving Denver, and heading to Seattle via road. I (as their new fixer in Seattle) am going to advise them that things are a little hot around the Seattle border right now, and get them to lay low for a few weeks, in the boonies, in some little 1 Horse town in Wyoming, and then hit them with a couple of one-shot runs, one of which is going to involve a rash of missing persons, and some sort of cult lead by a Wendigo. I was going to make him (The Wendigo) a sort of travelling Druid/Shaman, who put up a good front, but was eating kids or something on the DL....but ended up liking the idea of the Traveling Druid too much, and made him an NPC instead.

Anyway, Wendigos rock.
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Shrike30
post May 1 2006, 09:00 PM
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QUOTE (Monnock @ May 1 2006, 07:52 AM)
Whats worse, he slaughters force 1 (by binding and forcing them to drain their force to sustain them) spirits to buff the entire party with invisibility, armor buffs, initiative pass buffs, ect. It's fun having a character with four initiative passes that is always invisible and levitating 24/7. I'm worried about him even gaining a little bit more power, just because right now he seems a bit rediculous as it is.

Many other people have covered the possibilities of "spirit bane," but nobody's commented on this other particular detail yet, i think:

If he's binding Force 1 spirits to do this kind of stuff for him, a lot of GMs would rule that the spirits won't overcast, limiting him to Force 1 spells that're on all the time. If you're giving him some leeway to force the spirits to overcast, this limits him to Force 2 spells being on all the time.

The spirits are the ones casting the spells that they're binding, not the mage (unless I'm mistaken). Since Force limits the maximum number of hits you can get with a spell, this means that his Invisibility is easily bypassed by anyone who can make a few hits on a perception test (someone like the average security guard is probably running 3 Int, 3 Perception, and averages 2 succeses, so standard deviation can bump him easily to 3 if you get lucky), his Improved Invisibility probably can't make the Object Resistance Threshold of most automated systems (3 or 4), and his increased reflexes spell gives a maximum of one extra IP and Initiative (since the threshold for getting the *lowest* level of effectiveness is 2, and that's the maximum these spirits can cast at). I can't remember how many successes are required to levitate stuff around at any kind of speed, but thought the weight you could lift was limited by successes in some kind of way?

These spells all become more effective when you get more hits on the cast, and since the spirits doing the casting are limited to a maximum of one or two hits (depending on if they can overcast or not in your games) it sounds like he's missed out on this limiter and is using these spells at a much higher Force than the spirits can even cast them (or is simply ignoring the limiter completely).
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mdynna
post May 1 2006, 09:22 PM
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Woah, Monnock, you are the GM. That means what you say goes, period. If your player doesn't like it he can go somewhere else. You need to regain control from this guy. I agree with the statement above: he tells you the number of hits and you tell him what happens. He has no right to know how many hits you rolled or what the NPC's stats are. You, however, have the right to change the stats of an NPC or the hits rolled on a particular test anytime if you so choose. The only other "shame on you" I'm going to say is: you should have read the whole book before GM'ing.

Now, that being said, RPGs are not about the GM "vs" the players. It is about telling a story, and having fun. Keep those things in mind as your run your sessions. Alter things as needed to ensure that:
1) The story remains consistent, and interesting
2) Everyone is having fun

You didn't state it explicitly but I get the impression that other players in the group might be annoyed with this guy as well. No one likes to have their characters abilites berated by someone bragging how "awesome" their guy is. So, here's my advice: read the rules, and crack down on this guy. Start with just the Magic Chapter if it seems like a big deal. Know the rules. Stop the game and check them if you need to (I do it all the time). Develop your understanding/interpretation of the rules, let the group know what your understanding is, then stick by it. Your ruling is final.

If things still continue to get out of hand, and your player keeps nagging, complaining, and railing on you, you might not have any other choice but to drop the "GM hammer" on him. If he is ruining everyone else's fun it might be time for him to run afoul of Lofwyr in human form making an S-K Prime "inspection." Have him do his muncher crap, then have Lofwyr strip aside his petty magic, then cast "some spell you don't know." Have him roll his Willpower + Counterspelling (just for kicks) then simply say to him: "Ok you die."
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mdynna
post May 1 2006, 09:30 PM
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I just thought of something else that might help you: remember Astral Space. Half a dozen spells sustained by half a dozen spirits 24/7 is a fragging astral lighthouse! Remind the player that if he has the resources to summon legions of spirits to do his bidding than the megacorporations he is going against can do the same thing and much more.

Strolling into some corp facitility with all of that magical "ordinance" will send every Watcher spirit they have on patrol screaming back to their masters. Then its all about the Security Mage(s) calling in their legions of Bound Spirits to smack your group around.
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Shrike30
post May 1 2006, 09:32 PM
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Hell, who needs legions? One Force 10 spirit (i have no problem buying the concept that the security mage for a major facility has initiated 4 times) will slow anyone down, especially if he hits first.
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bustedkarma
post May 1 2006, 09:51 PM
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Force 10 Spirit....you know, I didn't realize how scary that number is until I wrote out it's stats, and rolled a couple of F10 Fireballs. He melts faces.
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