Hacking and Logic Options

[Big D]

Sorry if I seem particularly obtuse, but this has been bugging me...

When exactly can a hacker/TM use skill+Logic instead of skill+program?

"When you are directly interacting with a device" seems way too open for me. Does that mean if I skip the program/CF and attempt to perform an action that a program/CF does without using one that I can use Logic for the pool instead? That seems munchy, because then a maxed hacker can have the equivalent of a rating-9 program on any action that they choose--with the only catch being that they couldn't replicate sustained programs like armor, or simulate running multiple programs at once.

Does it instead mean that I can never use skill+Logic unless I'm crouched over a captured commlink on a desk trying to take it apart, or something?

Also, on a similar note, is there any reason (other than prejudice) that a TM shouldn't just carry a commlink around full of programs that they don't have CFs for (yet), run it into their PAN, and access it from their living persona as needed? That would seem to be particularly useful for starting TMs to do, to cover their weak spots. After all, program upgrades are cheaper than CF upgrades, if you get my meaning.

[Aaron]

Here's how I'd do it:

"Geez, this guy's commlink is set up in some completely fragged-up chiphead way. Lemme see if I can get it to work properly." -- Computer (or Hacking) + Logic

"Geez. this guy's commlink is protected with some completely fragged-up chiphead firewall. Lemme see if I can get it to work properly." -- Hacking + Exploit

"Geez. this guy's commlink is protected with some completely fragged-up chiphead encryption. Lemme see if I can get it to read properly." -- Response + Decrypt

[BnF95]

Hacking on the fly?

[Big D]

[BnF95]

Could be because a program isn't as intuitive as a person? Although I do sometimes allow my PCs to add in their intuition/logic attribute to the skill+program check, specially when they are helping the program out (i.e. REALLY trying to crack something ... fast.)

[Big D]

I buy the, err, logic, of that, but it makes for some odd gameplay considerations.

For starters, if I have a high Logic, why should I ever buy an attack program? Any time that I would use an attack program, I could perform the attack myself instead.

The same goes for the major action-based programs, like exploit and edit.

[BnF95]

Errr ... instead of skill+program it becomes skill+program+attribute?

[Konsaki]

Paint a room with photoshop (Edit Program) and then paint a room using 1's and 0's (Logic) or some other code language.

[Thanee]

[Kremlin KOA]

on the photosop thing, I know programmers who work faster in assembler than in photoshop when doing graphics

[Konsaki]

Is that a program or a language?

[Voran]

I'm thinking instead of skill+program+attribute directly, you could roll attribute (logic or whatever) and the number of hits you get is the number of dice you can add to skill+program.

[BnF95]

[mfb]

[hobgoblin]

[GrinderTheTroll]

[Big D]

So, going back to the original question, is this something that's just unclear in RAW? It certainly sounds that way, and that was the main thing that I wanted to confirm.

In general, I'm liking Aaron's recommendation, which seems to disallow Logic from being used in any situation where a specific program can be used instead. I worry that adding 5-10 dice on top of a normal skill+program pool could make hacking anything that doesn't have a Logic attribute too easy.

On the other hand, that would imply that you simply couldn't perform an action for which you had no program.

Would some sort of a default penalty be appropriate to allow a decker to use Logic in place of a program? Even then, if it was only a -2 penalty, a super-intelligent hacker would ignore most programs--but then, maybe that's a reasonable assumption to begin with.

[Kyoto Kid]

[bustedkarma]

I like the idea of allowing a hacker to use Logic, to some degree. I think of it as the hacker adding a new bit of code on the fly to his utility, to try an make it work a little better for the current situation.

[Kyoto Kid]

As I understand it from the description, hacking on the fly is considered a more "brute force" approach and thus is more likely to trigger an alert.

I would think that aside from drain, hacking should use the same mechanic as for casting spells.

Pool = Logic + Hacking Skill

Damage/Effect = Programme rating + net hits [with maximum hits applicable = programme rating]

[hobgoblin]

how about rolling logic and the number of hits is the number of extra dice it gives to the skill test?

[Geekkake]

The hacker in my games who starts asking for Logic in addition to other pools, or in lieu of weaker programs, is the hacker who gets what he wants, and somehow runs into nothing but ultraviolets filled with hideous forms of black ice that dissolve his mind from the inside out.

Are you listening, Red?

[Thanee]

[Konsaki]

[Voran]

Hm. I kinda also like the idea of Logic+Skill with a max hits based on something like twice the program rating. You could be a smart, skilled guy, but if you're stuck using a piddly program, it'll really limit you.