 Area effect spells and line of sight |
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 May 3 2006, 09:55 PM
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#51
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957  |
If you believe the post of a moron claiming to have seen "proof". :D
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May 3 2006, 10:04 PM
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#52
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Don't you have better things to do? Like create unnessasary facing rules additions to game rules you don't actually understand to start with? Or maybe you could start up one of those web dictionary pages for wildly alternate definitions of things like free pass. You might be able to speed up the process by just taking some random words and running them through Babelfish from English to Chinese to Spanish and then back to English. :rotfl:
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May 3 2006, 10:11 PM
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#53
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Target Group: Members Posts: 79 Joined: 18-September 05 Member No.: 7,758 |
Page Number? |
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May 3 2006, 10:14 PM
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#54
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
you guys really, really deserve each other.
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May 3 2006, 10:22 PM
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#55
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
I'm sorry for jilting you like that. If you'd only post something wildly irrational again maybe we could work it out. ;( I mean McMurray has his head stuffed up his posterior and all, which is fun, but he just doesn't have the quality of intellect to back it up like you do. It is like kicking kittens. Sure initially fun, but in the end quite an empty experience because they are just little tiny kittens and really can't fight back. |
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May 3 2006, 10:46 PM
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#56
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
you got me there... looks like its another small detail that have changed from SR3. and given that, things just got even more messed up... |
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May 3 2006, 10:51 PM
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#57
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
blakkie, leaving aside the pointless insults (if you can), answer me this:
Is it possible for a character to be standing somewhere, looking in a single direction? Can you walk up unnoticed by that person? If so, then you've just determined his facing. If not, then yu've just given him eyes in the back of the head. Question two, same as question one except that the person is now under the effects of Hold Person, so he couldn't move his head if he wanted. Could you walk up without him seeing you? If so, from what direction? If not, why? |
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May 4 2006, 12:18 AM
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#58
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
Please don't think I'm taking sides here - I happen to think you're both zealous morons. (You've also both got systems that work for your groups, so it doesn't really matter what I or anyone else thinks...)
Putting my :nuyen:.02 in, I like using battle mats and miniatures during combat in my games, and am happy using a 'dumbed down' version of facing ("you see in a 200 degree arc oriented whichever way you're mini is facing") and let that apply to both spellcasting and spell defense. I like making the players choose tactically whether to put the mage in front (more exposed, can't spell defend those behind him, but doesn't have to worry about friendly fire on his AOE spells) versus having him behind (safer for him, and can give spell defense but more likely to kill his own guys with friendly fire.) |
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May 4 2006, 12:36 AM
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#59
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Well, a caster can always remove hits on a spellcasting test, so one can balance their counterspelling with their AOE.
Corporations will install spam zones that they activate during an intrusion, these zones then flood all visual AR with black screens, possibly rendering your AR useless. Some places could also jam the area, especially if they rely on a wired system. I'm not sure you can block yourself without blocking other targets as well, but also note that your AR Glasses would be valid targets for physical AOE spells. This post has been edited by Kanada Ten: May 4 2006, 12:45 AM |
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May 4 2006, 05:01 AM
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#60
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
....or he happened to turn his head in that 750ms+ time span, which isn't all that difficult to do. :rotate: I'm pretty sure I covered that in the whole expanded paragraph about the physiological mechanics of heads and eyes in "my world". :dead: So yes indeed "facing" is handled in the RAW. It is built into the abstract so you don't -need- to screw around with the mess of who is pointing where at any given point. At most you probably should only give negatives to percieving, which does have adjustments listed for not being alert. Welcome to the skills Stealth and Perception, which functionally I like better than how D&D handles trying to sneak around. Or use Shadowing if you are doing the sneaking up without caring whether or not the mark sees you, just trying to blend in to all tho other people on the street. EDIT: Feel free to describe a successful roll IC as the mark was looking the other way, too busy staring at the WonderBra billboard, to notice the Troll sneaking up on him. Or any other creative descripton of why the mark was distracted/inattentive/stupified/looking the other way. See, the --dice-- inconjuction with the character's abilities can tell you when the character is looking the other way. @ Apathy: So if a mage moves his vision side to side or up and down during casting is he not not actually able to see multiple targets which could all be within range? I find with my own unaugmented :oops: IP of 1 i can easily glance around a good portion a sphere in 3 seconds. Actually I'm likely worse than just plain unaugmented with my stiff, aging, and car accident damaged neck. Hey, try it using a timer yourself. I did. :) Or watch someone [that is good] play a team sport like soccer, hockey, etc. It isn't some amazing edge for PCs either, because it cuts both ways and in multiple ways for NPCs too. It also allows you to consistantly handle simpler situtations without taking them to the mat too. If you don't mind all the extra effort of trying to figure out what is facing where when and for how long, and the table chatter (that likely will eventually come down to some codified shorthand like "I Greyhawk the room") have at it i suppose. In very specific situations, like someone that is getting rolled around on a dolly ala Hannibal Lector, you could worry about it. But normally there really is no need to sweat it because it's pretty much already right in there. Any "realism" you are adding with extra facing rules is just handicapping the PCs to the level of poorly trained combatants, because the well trained ones are checking their flanks and rear all the time (i.e. have good Perception ability) to give them as much awareness of the situation as possible. EDIT: That of course brings up another interesting irony. For all James' moaning about not being able to sneak up to distracted combatants in D&D, D&D does have a sneaking/distracted mechanic built right into the combat rules. It's called Flanking. Flanking gives melee attackers bonuses to hit and effectively gives rogues, and those like-skilled, DAH-DUM! Sneak Attacks....unless the mark is well trained in the art of not being Flanked. 8) |
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May 4 2006, 03:38 PM
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#61
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
While a character is fully capable of turning his head back and forth in the span of a second to see [at least close to] 360 degrees, at any one instant he's only looking in a single direction. In the instant that the enemy mage releases his thermonuclear-powerbolt-of-doom, the mage can only see those people that are in the 180-200 degree arc of his field of vision, and those are the only people he could protect with his spell defense. In the split second that he casts his own stunball, he is by definition looking only in one direction (possible exceptions if you're cross-eyed :twirl:, or if you have multiple cybereyes), and only the people you can actually see at that instant are the ones you [potentially] hit.
Since turns are 3 seconds or so, you could say that he was looking any direction as he was spinning around madly trying to see everything at once, but for simplicity's sake I just have the mage pick a direction and change his facing whenever he wants. However, if the mage is doing piroettes in the middle of battle trying to look all directions at once, he'll have more difficulty focusing on anything in any single direction, and I'd give him perception modifiers for that as well. |
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May 4 2006, 04:06 PM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
It's come up in my games. My ruling was this: Yes the mage can do that, but deliberately blocking your own line of sight results in a modifier equivalent to "partial cover" for all targets and a modifier equivalent to "full cover" for the protected target. The actual situation was a mage's friend being surrounded by about a hundred devil rats. ( He had stupidly charged into the room, thinking the element of surprise outvalued the element of caution ) The mage character decided against it and just blasted everything in the Area of Effect. Friend included. ( Who lived by the way. Lucky bastard. ) |
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May 4 2006, 08:53 PM
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#63
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
I'm curious what text this "targeting instant" comes from in SR. Not saying it definately isn't there, and i certainly am not the encyclopia of the rules past and present. I'm just not sure where that is from, or if it is a concept you have come up with. Because I don't remember seeing that. I seem to remember things always descibed interms of LOS (or touch) but not single, lengthless point in time reference. I don't see in the SR4 rules, or even the fluff, where they go into that sort of detail about that or mention there being an instant of vision. If that was the case there should be at least vision modifiers for anything out of a very narrow arc of view because we get the kind of vision field of view we do through our eyes moving...which while very quick is certainly not instantaneous. |
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May 4 2006, 09:16 PM
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#64
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
If we could pass on the discussion of D20 for a bit, and focus more on SR4...
The random possibilities that putting your hand in front of your eye or having your cybereyes programmed to black out your teammates can cause are having me heavily thinking I should be ignoring facing entirely, and have "Line of Sight" be completely unlinked from what the player is actually looking at. This lets him thump people in front of him, behind him, wherever, as long as you can draw a line on the astral between his brain and the target without going through a "solid" object. This makes it so "blind mages" aren't totally dependent upon switching to astral to cast (and prevents people from deliberately blinding themselves to a target, or at least discourages it). It also allows mage hoods to work, if you're willing to accept that they'd be bulky (over an inch thick) so that they could envelop the caster's aura. Since visibility modifiers are figured in to most casting, someone behind the caster would have the blind-fire modifier applied to them. |
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May 4 2006, 09:28 PM
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#65
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
It's not specified one way or the other in the text - it's just the interpretation that makes sense to me. |
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May 4 2006, 09:32 PM
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#66
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
So basically your problem with looking around while casting is created by the assumption of your own creation, and not really anything [as far as you know] in SR canon past or present? Did you happen to notice my last paragraph where i point out a problem with that assumption of yours? |
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May 4 2006, 09:34 PM
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#67
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Yeah, if you want to completely ignore what I said and instead let the dice determine what the guy does. I said he isn't looking around. Your response was "make him look around." Yeah, that makes sense. And you totally ignored the part about him being held and unable to look around. Yeah, there's flanking, but that's just a red herring that has nothing to do with sneaking up on someone unseen. Nice try though. Re targetting: do you let your mages target people all around them witht he same spell, despite the fact that they can't possibly see them all at the same time? If so that's cool, and I'm glad it works for your games, but it totally destroys the reasoning for using the phrases "line of sight" and "target what they see." booklord: I like your cover idea. If it comes up in our games I'll suggest we use it. |
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May 4 2006, 09:45 PM
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#68
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
Is this question directed at me? |
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May 4 2006, 09:46 PM
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#69
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
:rotfl: Damn you are slow on the uptake. Ok, nice and slow: You...are...creating...the...requirement...for...facing...rules...by...making...up...facing...rules. There is no real rules mechanic for a normal state character with a fixed stare until you make up the rules for it yourself.
:please: Er, no it isn't . Why do you want to sneak up on someone in combat? To do crap to them. You did say there was no sneaking in combat, that everyone saw everything all the time .... Beside the fact that I've already covered that sneaking up to someone in combat is effectively the same damn thing as sneaking up to them outside combat. That you are handling it so different is really, once again, you going off and making your own rules.
Er, no actually it doesn't at all. The only problem that is created is by the assumption of this made up idea of a lengthless instant in time, which itself brings with it other problems. |
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May 4 2006, 10:03 PM
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#70
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
Shaaaaaaadoooooowruuuuuuuun.... :|
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May 4 2006, 10:03 PM
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#71
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 19-January 04 Member No.: 5,992 |
Dragging up a point from the very freaking beginning of this whole debacle?
The Hand thing? I think that one is _expressly_ mentioned in the SR3 FAQ as being the acme of retardation. |
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May 4 2006, 10:06 PM
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#72
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Yes it is and yes it is. Too bad large portions of the SR3 FAQ are themselves in direct competiton for the title of "acme of retardation". :( |
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May 4 2006, 10:07 PM
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#73
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 19-January 04 Member No.: 5,992 |
Well. Here's another thought I had while just spinning around in circles in order to keep everybody in my LOS. (I Ride Spinnaz)
Cone-shaped magic, a la old-school shotguns. I will take this time to duck under the table and hide while the next shitstorm comes up. |
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 May 4 2006, 10:09 PM
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#74
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
*does some quick trig to try figure out if he can blast the hiding Dissonance using an old school OD&D Cone of Cold*
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May 4 2006, 10:10 PM
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#75
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
I suddenly had this really strong mental image of a chihuahua with one of those cones on its head casting AoE spells. |
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