Direct vs Indirect spells Options

[30+coyote]

I need clarification on these rules please. I have been rolling the dice and letting our GM tell us what happend however lately I've been trying to grasp the rules more clearly. I was reading over combat for mages and I was confused. What is the definition of a "direct" spell vs a "Indirect spell" is a direct spell one that targets just one person where as indirect are area of effect? The section wasn't very clear so I want to make sure I understand correctly.

Please and thank you :)


<Page 196 of SR4>
Direct Combat spells affect the target from the inside, so armor does not help with resistance. Direct Combat spells cast against nonliving objects are treated as Success Tests; the caster much achieve enough hits to beat the item’s Object Resistance (see p. 174). Net hits increase damage as normal (the object does not get a resistance test).

Indirect Combat Spells: Indirect Combat spells are treated like ranged combat attacks; the caster makes a Magic + Spellcasting Success Test versus the target’s Reaction. If the spell hits, the target resist with Body + half Impact armor (+ Counterspelling, if available), with each hit reducing the Damage Value.

If the modified spell DV does not exceed the modified Armor, Physical damage is converted to Stun. Note that nonliving objects resist damage from an Indirect Combat spell with their Armor rating x 2 (see Barriers, p. 157)

[Konsaki]

Direct single - I make you splode from the inside!
Indirect single - I make a flamethrower come out of my hand and it burns you.

Direct AoE - I make many people splode from the inside at once, whee.
Indirect AoE - I make a ball of fire and throw it near you and your buddy. It explodes causing burns on both of you.

If you read the spell groups themselves and pick one spell type (Direct, Stun) it will show around 3 different spells (Knockout [touch], Stunbolt [single] and Stunball [AoE]). the indirect spells have the same. The only difference is how the spell does the damage.
Direct = damages the inside bypassing armor and is illegal
Indirect = damages from the outside and has to tally in armor for damage. These spells are legal cause they can have peacefull uses.

[Dashifen]

Also, to expand on Konsaki's information, Indirect Combat Spells are treated as a Ranged Combat Test using Magic + Spellcasting as the magician's attack roll. This can be a good thing or a bad thing, be cause the spell isn't resisted as per normal, either, instead it's "resisted" using dodge and armor just as any other Ranged Combat test.

Lastly, the AOE Indirect Spells don't require line of sight, so your Force 6 fireball (12m diameter) can actually hit the guards around the corner while the same force Powerball could not.

[emo samurai]

Say I cast force 8 Powerbolt on a drone with an AR of 5. I get all 8 successes; does the drone take 16 damage or 11?

[Moon-Hawk]

11. Damage is force plus net hits. Net hits are those hits that exceed the threshold. In this case the threshold is 5. 8 hits exceeds the threshold of 5 by 3, so there are 3 net hits. Add 3 net hits to the force of 8 for 11 damage.
I know you understood me after the first sentence, but I figured I'd be explicit for the benefit of future readers, just in case.

[Dashifen]

Force 8 powerball + 8 successes. the Object Resistance of a drone is 4+ but we'll call it 4 for the moment. That leaves 4 net successes over the threshold. Thus the Force 8 Powerball +4 net successes = 12 DV. 12 DV is greater than the drone's armor of 5 which means that it takes damage.

Vehicular armor doesn't, unless I'm mistaken, subtract from the DV of an attack. Instead, if the DV doesn't exceed the armor, the attack does not damage.

[emo samurai]

Powerball sucks, then, for the sake of taking out objects.

[Moon-Hawk]

Yeah. In this case, an indirect probably would've worked better.

[Konsaki]

So you just need to fire a long burst from a LMG to do damage to anything...
6DV+9DV(+1 per bullet after the first)+Net hits... Its like all the bullets hit the exact same spot to bust through. :eek:

[James McMurray]

Extra bullets from burst and autofire do not help for determining whether an attack bypasses armor.

[blakkie]

[James McMurray]

Unless I'm wildly misremembering something, wide bursts don't up your DV, so don't help you bypass armor.

[Apathy]

Similar conversation we had a few weeks ago:

[James McMurray]

Looks good to me.

[blakkie]

[James McMurray]

They increase your odds of hitting, which increases your odds of hitting a vulnerable spot, which increases your odds of getting past armor.

Sure, it's got some holes in it, but it works for me. :)

[hobgoblin]

[Hunga]

I agree with hobgoblin. Wide burst decreases the defender's defense pool, which is just plain reaction (+dodge if full dodge).

I'm confused about the part where people say that extra bullets from burst fire don't help bypass armor though. Firing in full auto narrow mode gives the attack +9 DV on a successful hit, how does that not help bypass armor?

[Moon-Hawk]

It doesn't help when comparing the DV to the armor rating to determine whether it does stun or physical damage.
Take base damage, add successes. Compare this DV to the armor rating to determine if it's physical or stun. Then add DV from autofire. This is the final DV that they have to resist.

[blakkie]

[hobgoblin]

please, do not use the word penetration, thats what the AP stat is for.
a called shot to avoid armor, or a wide burst is something diffrent, atleast in concept...

[Dashifen]