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> really old guns.
Straight Razor
post May 3 2006, 11:31 PM
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i was wanting to know what you would rate the damage and power for:

.58 and .69 muzzle load rifle and pistol.

the 1836 colt revolver.

Spencer carbine, with its .52 caliber cartridges

Henry repeating rifle, with its .44 caliber cartridges

cannons:
5 to 90 pound balls
rifled vs smoothbore
would canister / grape shot be standard shot gun rules? (canister act as a full chock?)
how about chain shot.
1840's era exploding shells.




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PoorHobo
post May 3 2006, 11:51 PM
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I don't know about any of the other weapons but muzzle loaders have an extremely low velocity. Id say 4S for the pistol and musket. It will hurt without armor but even a 70's flack jacket would offer protetion gainst such a slow moving projectile.
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Fix-it
post May 4 2006, 03:30 AM
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but if you DONT have armor, it would surely mess you up good. those things fragmented like mad when they hit tissue.
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Nidhogg
post May 4 2006, 06:02 AM
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QUOTE (Fix-it)
but if you DONT have armor, it would surely mess you up good. those things fragmented like mad when they hit tissue.

+DV, -AP
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Crusher Bob
post May 4 2006, 07:17 AM
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Here's the previous thread on almost the same subject:

Black-powder era weapons?
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PoorHobo
post May 4 2006, 07:23 AM
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Just curious, do you want to equip yourself or your PC's with these weapons or do you intend to throw civil war soldiers at your pc's...or is this just a theoretical excersise?

Please oh please be the third reason.
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Raygun
post May 4 2006, 08:29 AM
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QUOTE (Straight Razor)
i was wanting to know what you would rate the damage and power for:

.58 and .69 muzzle load rifle and pistol.

Could you be a little more specific? Keep in mind that in muzzleloaded blackpowder firearms the powder charge could vary greatly, which is why it's very difficult to find any kind of velocity figures for them. We might be able to come up with a range of energy levels that would give us an idea of where to place it in terms of SR DCs. Also remember that because velocity varied greatly, so did accuracy.

QUOTE
the 1836 colt revolver.

Here we're looking at a .36 caliber lead ball, about 68 grains. I would guess velocity wouldn't be anything fantastic, likely in the 800-900 fps range, which would mean 96-122 fpe, which is very, very lightweight by today's standards. Less energy than a modern .22 LR. in SR3 terms, I would say 5L-6L.

QUOTE
Spencer carbine, with its .52 caliber cartridges

Finally a cartridge gun... the 56-52 Spencer pushed a 400 grain bullet at 1200 fps for 1279 fpe. That's a very big bullet... I'd say 7-8S for that one.

QUOTE
Henry repeating rifle, with its .44 caliber cartridges

The .44 Henry was a 200 grain LFN bullet at about 1150 fps for 587 fpe. SR3 = 9M. Ballistically comparable to a modern .45 ACP+P load, though the bullet is not.

Remember that all of the above blackpowder loads use lead bullets, and lead bullets really suck against any form of body armor as they're typically very soft and so fond of deforming easily.

QUOTE
cannons:
5 to 90 pound balls
rifled vs smoothbore

Better range with the rifled bore, obviously. How much better I couldn't tell you. I would only be guessing at velocities. mid-19th century artillery is not my bag, baby.

QUOTE
would canister / grape shot be standard shot gun rules?  (canister act as a full chock?)

That would be the easy way.

QUOTE
how about chain shot.

Aren't there rules for shotgun "bolo" rounds somewhere? Might be helpful.

QUOTE
1840's era exploding shells.

Better odds of blowing yourself up. Area effect... make some rules.

Planning some time travel here?
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stevebugge
post May 4 2006, 03:11 PM
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QUOTE (PoorHobo)
Just curious, do you want to equip yourself or your PC's with these weapons or do you intend to throw civil war soldiers at your pc's...or is this just a theoretical excersise?

Please oh please be the third reason.

There is a fourth option, Astral Quests ala Harlequin's Back. They give you license to include all sorts of weird stuff.
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Kyoto Kid
post May 4 2006, 04:38 PM
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QUOTE (stevebugge)
QUOTE (PoorHobo @ May 3 2006, 11:23 PM)
Just curious, do you want to equip yourself or your PC's with these weapons or do you intend to throw civil war soldiers at your pc's...or is this just a theoretical excersise?

Please oh please be the third reason.

There is a fourth option, Astral Quests ala Harlequin's Back. They give you license to include all sorts of weird stuff.

...ahh yes

Fist Full O' Karma" My favourite segment of Harlequin's Back.

This is where the original Kyoto Kid got her "six gun" style. & cowgirl look.

Even was immortalised in a dime novel titled The Phlogiston Kid - Shootout at the the Double K Corral
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Straight Razor
post May 5 2006, 01:41 AM
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QUOTE
Just curious, do you want to equip yourself or your PC's with these weapons or do you intend to throw civil war soldiers at your pc's...or is this just a theoretical excersise?


it is for part of a run i'm working on. sorta twilight zone meets groung hog day. with the whole run set to the good the bad and the ugly. with my players being the ugly.
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Kyoto Kid
post May 5 2006, 03:14 AM
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QUOTE (Straight Razor)
QUOTE
Just curious, do you want to equip yourself or your PC's with these weapons or do you intend to throw civil war soldiers at your pc's...or is this just a theoretical excersise?


it is for part of a run i'm working on. sorta twilight zone meets groung hog day. with the whole run set to the good the bad and the ugly. with my players being the ugly.

...sounds like fun.

aay Blondie...!
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Snow_Fox
post May 5 2006, 03:44 AM
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smooth bore, flint lock musket bals so not break up on impact. They flatten up and make big holes. their penetrating power in limited but their kenetic energy is massive. I'd treat them similar to fletchettes for armor- impact harmor is halved but hardened armor is normal.
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Fix-it
post May 5 2006, 04:01 AM
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QUOTE (Snow_Fox)
smooth bore, flint lock musket bals so not break up on impact. They flatten up and make big holes. their penetrating power in limited but their kenetic energy is massive. I'd treat them similar to fletchettes for armor- impact harmor is halved but hardened armor is normal.

you are correct, however they did load them with one ball and three pieces of buckshot.

the fragmentation happens when it hits bone.
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Straight Razor
post May 5 2006, 04:16 AM
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QUOTE

QUOTE

i was wanting to know what you would rate the damage and power for:
.58 and .69 muzzle load rifle and pistol.


Could you be a little more specific? Keep in mind that in muzzleloaded blackpowder firearms the powder charge could vary greatly, which is why it's very difficult to find any kind of velocity figures for them. We might be able to come up with a range of energy levels that would give us an idea of where to place it in terms of SR DCs. Also remember that because velocity varied greatly, so did accuracy.


.58 caliber Springfield musket and the .69 caliber Harpers Ferry Rifle
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Austere Emancipa...
post May 5 2006, 07:29 AM
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.58" Springfield rifled musket:
500 grain bullet at 900-950fps for 900-1002ft-lbs. If the Spencer carbine is 8S, then this should probably be a 7S.

.69" Harpers Ferry rifled M1842 musket:
I could find but a single reference to the weight of the standard bullets for this one (730 grains) and but a hint as to the possible muzzle velocity (750-800fps). That'd give you 912-1038ft-lbs at the muzzle. 8S, maybe, because of the larger caliber?

QUOTE (Snow_Fox)
their penetrating power in limited but their kenetic energy is massive.

Well, no. Compared to modern weapons, 18th-19th century muskets range from .44 Magnum to light 20 gauge shotgun slug loads -- anywhere from 700 to 1500ft-lbs or so. Kinetic energy wise, a hot .454 Casull load, any 12 gauge slug load, or rifles in anything more powerful than 7.62x39mm will blow them out of the water.

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: May 5 2006, 07:43 AM
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mfb
post May 5 2006, 09:58 AM
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their KE is on the low side, but their ability to cause massive wounds is comparatively high, simply because of the volume and mass involved. it's the difference between getting stabbed by a pencil and stabbed by a chunk of rebar. bigger hole = more owwie. at least, that's how i understand it.
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Austere Emancipa...
post May 5 2006, 10:09 AM
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Low velocity shotgun slugs are a pretty decent modern equivalent. Still, many (most?) 12G slug loads can create wounds even bigger and deeper.
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Raygun
post May 6 2006, 12:28 AM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
.58" Springfield rifled musket:
500 grain bullet at 900-950fps for 900-1002ft-lbs. If the Spencer carbine is 8S, then this should probably be a 7S.

I'd probably give them the same DC (7S or 8S); they're not that far apart. One off isn't any big deal either, though.

QUOTE
.69" Harpers Ferry rifled M1842 musket:
I could find but a single reference to the weight of the standard bullets for this one (730 grains) and but a hint as to the possible muzzle velocity (750-800fps). That'd give you 912-1038ft-lbs at the muzzle. 8S, maybe, because of the larger caliber?

That's more than I could find. 8S seems reasonable to me. Awful lot of bullet...

QUOTE (mfb @ May 5 2006, 09:58 AM)
their KE is on the low side, but their ability to cause massive wounds is comparatively high, simply because of the volume and mass involved. it's the difference between getting stabbed by a pencil and stabbed by a chunk of rebar. bigger hole = more owwie. at least, that's how i understand it.

That's pretty much it. If penetration is similar, the bigger object is going to disrupt more tissue. Or to cause a wound channel with the same surface area, the larger object doesn't have to penetrate as a far. When you don't have to worry about penetrating anything harder than demin or leather, velocity isn't as important and bigger bullets do a better job.
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Snow_Fox
post May 6 2006, 03:36 AM
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It's more than big holes with smooth bore weapons. The large number of amputated limbs in war had nothing to do with an inability to set broken bones. where as modern bullets clip bones cleanly and keep going, soft, flat .69 caliber musket balls would tranfer their KE to the bones and shatter them. Doctors could set broken bones in 1776. but a limb hit by a ball did not have bones to set, they went from limb to flesh maraca in a momment.
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Lindt
post May 6 2006, 03:46 AM
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QUOTE (Snow_Fox)
Doctors could set broken bones in 1776. but a limb hit by a ball did not have bones to set, they went from limb to flesh maraca in a momment.

Ewwwwwwww...
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Raygun
post May 6 2006, 04:16 AM
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Not only that, but in such a case, the bullet would also tend to fragment partially, presenting a substantial threat of a slow death by lead poisoning as there was no easy way to find the fragments, such as X-ray. The most expedient repair was to lop the whole thing off. Being shot back in the day was especially no bueno.
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Snow_Fox
post May 6 2006, 07:53 PM
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QUOTE (Fix-it)
QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ May 5 2006, 03:44 AM)
smooth bore, flint lock musket bals so not break up on impact. They flatten up and make big holes. their penetrating power in limited but their kenetic energy is massive. I'd treat them similar to fletchettes for armor- impact harmor is halved but hardened armor is normal.

you are correct, however they did load them with one ball and three pieces of buckshot.

the fragmentation happens when it hits bone.

I'd question the article. since he doesn't say what university he is with.

the "bucxk and ball is much later than I'm talking. That is talking about Springfields and Enfields. Much later than the brownbess. The British Brown bess had a .75 bore and fired .69 cal soft lead shot. The French Charlieville was a little smaller but the same rough proportions.

The ball bounced around in the barrel while flying down it making it wildly inaccurate. They didn't add extra stuff unless they were desperate, like the 3rd British charge at Bunker Hill.
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Austere Emancipa...
post May 6 2006, 08:02 PM
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QUOTE (Snow_Fox)
I'd question the article. since he doesn't say what university he is with.

It's an article published in the Indiana University South Bend Undergraduate Research Journal (hence iusb.edu/~journal).
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Snow_Fox
post May 7 2006, 02:51 PM
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OK Missed that but I still stand by the rest of my statment. I will confess my expertese with smooth bore does not reach into the 19th century. and that is where the article is going.

I'm more into the period 1715(dog lock muskets) through 1815, (Waterloo).
in 1802 you see the development of the Baker Rifle, the first military rifle (rifles used on the battlefield prior to that were personal hunting weapons and among other htings they were not of a uniform quality or caliber) and the 3 generation of the Brown Bess- the India or Sea pattern, replacing the short land pattern of the American Revolution and the long land pattern of the 7 Years war. The muskets wre shorter in the barrell without significant loss of accuracy, because there wasn't much to lose, with a signicant loss of weight.

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