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> Cyberlimbs & Alpha Grade
Smilin_Jack
post May 4 2006, 10:56 PM
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Hoi Chummers!

Just got back into SR the other day after not playing since SR1 and I've got a simple question about Cyberlimbs.

I can't find anything RAW in the SR4 Core book that says cyberlimbs aren't available in alpha grade? Is that correct?
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Serbitar
post May 4 2006, 10:58 PM
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Yes, you can'tfind it.

And yes, you can't find it, because it is not there.
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Serbitar
post May 4 2006, 10:59 PM
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double post
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Smilin_Jack
post May 4 2006, 11:03 PM
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Thanks Serbitar.

So with the x.8 reduction in essence cost for alplha grade cyberware (or cyberlimbs) in this case, you could replace both arms, legs, and encase the skull and torso for a platry 5 essence?

Just wanted to make sure I'm not being crazy. :eek:
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Shrike30
post May 4 2006, 11:09 PM
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I'm not sure it works out to exactly 5 essense, but yes, with alphaware you can (barely) create a borg. It's easier with beta, and a *lot* easier with delta.

I usually define "full borg" as being torso, skull, all 4 limbs, eyes, and ears. They're kind of fun to use in-game :)
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Big D
post May 5 2006, 01:31 AM
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I'll take theoretical troll over a borg any day. It can take a lot more damage.
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Thanee
post May 5 2006, 03:49 AM
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What's the problem with that?

Essence does not relate to body mass. ;)

Besides, even if you do that, you still have much of your body left (brain and all internal organs, for example). But as said, that has nothing to do with Essence.

Losing Essence is more an indicator how much you deviate from a 'normal person'. Not quite accurate as well, but that's more like it, than counting how many pounds of flesh got replaced or something along those lines.

It's also a game balance factor, of course.

Bye
Thanee
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last_of_the_grea...
post May 5 2006, 05:13 AM
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Actually, due to high availability, you cannot have a cyberskull at character creation. But, if you put 50 points into resources and 200 into attributes, spend no points on any physical attribute except reaction and but all the limb attribute enhancements at rating 6 you can have a human character with scores of 5 in all his mental attributes and reaction and scores of 1(9) in all his physical attributes except for reaction!! On top of that, with 5 cyber limb replacements, his or her condition monitor would end up being 18! Mmmm! Munchety goodness.

B:1(9)
A:1(9)
R:5
S:1(9)
C:5
I:5
L:5
W:5
E:2

Initiative:10
CM:9(18)
Knowledge skill points:75

On top of that you still have 10 000 nuyen to spend and 150 points to spend on skills, edge and skills and qualities. Buy that cyberskull later and your condition monitor goes up to 19. Buy the armour and you shall rock hard!

GM's love me!
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Abschalten
post May 5 2006, 09:27 AM
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last_of_the_great_mikeys: That character, while a nice exercise in munching, is incredibly crappy as a character. As a GM, I would feel obligated to spank a character like that, especially with a Body score of 1. Maybe you have these wonderful hydraulic-powered, titanium alloy cyberlimbs and a torso built like a tank, but what happens when you get hit with gas? Or contract a disease or infection of some type? Most people forget that even though you might be borging out with the limbs, that cybertorso is still essentially a big metal barrel holding what's left of your guts in.

How about swimming? Hope you got some Swimming skill to balance out that -6 pool you're looking at, or I hope that you never get near even the smallest bodies of water, up to and including puddles of rainwater amassing in potholes.

Running would be a problem, too, as you'd have to go off of your unaugmented Body when determining how long you can sprint or jog (I don't see how having inch-think titanium is going to make your wheezing little lungs and your withered pulp of a heart work any faster -- in fact combine the two, and I think you're looking at running penalties as well.)

Not to mention you'd have a complete inability to interact with normal people, as all that visible cyber would give you crushing penalties to just about any social test (unless it involves Intimidation.) You'll always stand out and you'll be ridiculously easy to track.

That Edge is also pitiful as well. 2 Edge? That's it?

There's a bunch of other problems with this character as well. But you know what? You're right. As a GM, I'd LOVE to have you in my game. I delight in devouring ridiculous character concepts like these.
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Kremlin KOA
post May 5 2006, 09:52 AM
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General Greivous? Is that you?

Oh and Abschaltan, I suppose Kid Stealth would not have been a viable or usable char in your games either?
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hobgoblin
post May 5 2006, 09:58 AM
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water in potholes a problem? how so?

and on the topic of running: given that the limbs and so on are now metal framework, engines and other mechanical stuff, i would expect that a person could be running for as long as the power cell lasted.

the biggest problem for the guy would be social stuff. but if the team have a face, or someone else that can do the major talking, classify him as a bodyguard and trow on a heavy trench coat, a big hat, and maybe something covering the face ;)
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Serbitar
post May 5 2006, 09:59 AM
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I would use the augmented attribute for determining how long you can sprint, how good you swin and so on. After all, you don't need oxygen for any muscles anymore . . .

I do not think, that the char concept is ridiculous at all. It just has some drawbacks, which are in the range of the problems a normal troll has.
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mfb
post May 5 2006, 10:03 AM
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mikey's character has some weak points, but no moreso than any other character type, really. i'd hit him with gas occasionally, too--less to spank him than because gas is really handy, in many situations. he's also somewhat prone to spells that reduce physical attributes.
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hobgoblin
post May 5 2006, 10:15 AM
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hmm, spells. powerbolt and ball would realy mess up his day as those would use his meat body stat, not the cyber one.

on that subject, he would have a serious problem with magical healing to given the essence cost of it all...
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Abschalten
post May 5 2006, 10:50 AM
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I don't have a problem with borg characters in and of themselves. I had a player run one in one of my campaigns, a PC by the name of Frank. (As a pleasant side note, Frank's player is the only person I've ever seen convincingly play a Charisma 1 PC, as Frank was horribly scarred, aloof, distant, and severely lacking in any social graces due to his perceived "inhumanity.") His stats were reasonable and he roleplayed well. He also deigned himself a Body of 3 to account for the holistic health of the guts inside of his torso as well as proper functioning of his central nervous system.

As for the penalties to swimming, it's -1 to your pool (haw, pun intended) for every cyberlimb. That particular argument wasn't based on Body.

However, the argument for the cyberware's Body not factoring in while sprinting or running is admittedly debateable. I hadn't thought of WHY the lungs and heart are functioning -- they're sending oxygen to the rest of the body. The fact remains, however, that with a Body of 1 the guts inside the can are still going to be bareful functional, so I could honestly go either way on it.

I also would assert that the Physical Condition Meter for the borg character wouldn't be based on his limbs' Body, either. The main reason for this is due to the fact that, if you think about it, the benefits from cyberlimbs really aren't augmented ratings. They are individual limbs with ratings that do not add to or contribute to the baseline rating, which in this case would be 1. His Condition Meter would be a 15 (8+(1/2, rounded up)+5 limbs) or 16 with the Cyberskull.

My biggest problem with his character it is an obvious exercise in min-maxing with little to no regard of roleplay viability. Not only is it an exercise in min-maxing, but the result is one that has huge, gaping holes in the design. Top this off with statements like his GM loves him for his ability to create one-dimensional abominations such as these, and I'm getting the mental image of a player who revels in power-gaming and making the GM miserable like a pig is happy to squirt and squirm around in his own shit. If he tried to pull a character like this on me with that same attitude, would I feel obligated to show him where it falls short? Definitely.
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Dissonance
post May 5 2006, 10:59 AM
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While I agree with the concept of occasional spanking, as well as the idea of creating fullborgs in general? I'm a little concerned about your thoughts on Cyberware and Body ratings.

As a fullborg, you're losing out on a _lot_ of potential stuff. Basically, well, pretty much any kind of body-intensive cyberware and pretty much every bit of bioware.

There's penalties enough for going fullborg. Why not let have 'em have their bone?
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hobgoblin
post May 5 2006, 11:22 AM
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hmm, i wonder if not a "simpler" way of doing those limb stats would be to give them a stat bonus effect rather then their own physical stats.

basicly they would start out at +0 body, strength and agility, and then you buy a single upgrade for all limbs. the capacity cost would be high tho, but with several limbs you could spread out the total cost over the diffrent limbs.

still, i guess that as you stack up on artificial limbs, your natural stats would take a hit as your removing part of your body. that way you could not exploit the rules by starting out with high natural stats and then stacking on limbs on top of that :P
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Aaron
post May 5 2006, 11:39 AM
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QUOTE (Big D)
I'll take theoretical troll over a borg any day. It can take a lot more damage.

Even with the six extra damage boxes the borg gets?
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Squinky
post May 5 2006, 01:03 PM
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I never understand when people say a borged character will fail socially. First off, there are places in the SR world that a person like that would be treated well. Not every place is ritsy and uppity.

Secondly, if he dosen't have a cyber-skull, the character can wear clothes over his limbs, so even if he didn't wear gloves, the normal person will still only have his arms showing, unless the go around in muscle shirts and shorts, which dosen't fit the typical shadowrunner description. If they can hid that smartgun and monosword under that long coat, chances are that their cyber won't be detected visaully...

Running and other physical checks would go off the cyber body in my opinion. I doubt using a cyber-muscle requires heavier breathing to fuel the exertion. That said, you have to set aside point for natural body as a borg, because it will screw up your average too. If all your cyber limbs are 9 body, and your body is 1, there goes the average down to 7. No good in my mind.

Biggest probs I see with borgs: Lack of reflex boosters, lack of bioware+cyber that can mostly outperform cyber-limbs. And no sneakyness allowed whatsoever, becuase and security system will see you as a big tin can a mile away.

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last_of_the_grea...
post May 5 2006, 04:00 PM
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My defence: The rules say the augmented attribute counts, going so far as to say if you want to raise your attributes using karma then spend based off the augmented attribute. Thus the augmented attribute applies at all times.

The price paid included the cyber torso's attribute enhancements and synthetic versions, not obvious ones.

The downside: Sweet mercy does he ever weigh a lot. He'd crack floors everywhere he went.

As for why he's full borg: any good roleplayer can come up with a background that works. Off the top of my head: He was an unwilling test subject for full conversion, He'd been turned into chunks on an operating table after being caught in a gang war's crossfire and full conversion was his only option, he got a horribly disease that ruined his body and he decided full conversion was better that life as a head attatched to a useless body in a wheelchair or the ever popular, "Man, I don't remember a thing about last night. I drank way too much!" "Dude, you got metal arms!" "Dude! You too!"
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Moon-Hawk
post May 5 2006, 04:04 PM
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There are other reasons.
Such as being a total nut-job.
It's called "Body Integrity Identity Disorder."
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Chiaroscuro23
post May 5 2006, 04:34 PM
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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
There are other reasons.
Such as being a total nut-job.
It's called "Body Integrity Identity Disorder."

Also: Robocop.

C'mon, who doesn't want to RP Murphy! You could kill Red from that 70s show since now it's the 2070s.

The roleplaying potential is endless.

:D
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Abschalten
post May 5 2006, 06:58 PM
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Frank's reason was that he was ex-military, and that he happened to be standing a few feet from the place a mortar shell went off. Cyber arms, legs, torso... And his head had no hair on it, maggot-white skin, and he was missing his nose.

Frank was cool.

QUOTE
My defence: The rules say the augmented attribute counts, going so far as to say if you want to raise your attributes using karma then spend based off the augmented attribute. Thus the augmented attribute applies at all times.


But that's the thing: Even if you got a body consisting of replacement limbs, those are not adding to your attribute ratings. They are ratings for the individual parts. If you have a Strength of 3 and you get Muscle Augmentation I, that adds DIRECTLY to your rating and gives you something like Strength 3(4) on your character sheet. If you got a Body of 3 with your borg and then replaced all his parts, if you used karma to raise it you'd still only be buying it up to 4.

The limbs aren't adding to anything. The limbs have individual ratings which are all averaged together depending on the test, common sense, and GM fiat. Firing a pistol might just use the Agility in one arm. Firing a large machine gun might use the average Agility of two arms and your torso since you're holding it and turning your hips to fire it. Trying to push a car would use the average Strength of all your limbs since you're pushing with your feet AND arms AND chest. But these are going off their individual ratings, which do not add to the base attribute.

If you had a single cyberarm with Body 8 and you had a natural Body of 3, you would use your flesh's natural Body to figure out your CM (10+1 for the limb.) This is true no matter how many limbs you replace.

While I could understand gimping Strength to 1 and going with further complete replacement, and I could almost understand doing it to Agility, doing so with Body when you still have guts inside the torso (heart, lungs, pancreas, spleen, spine, central nervous system, brain, etc) is ludicrous. You are still considering things like your immune system, cardiocirculatory health, and your overall resistance to outside forces, including bullets that might get past that cyberware and puncture a lung.
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hobgoblin
post May 5 2006, 08:47 PM
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one may ask, what body should one roll when soaking damage. the cybertorso body, or the meat body? for some reason i cant fully figure out why they gave the cyberlimbs a body stat.
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Abschalten
post May 5 2006, 09:22 PM
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You've run into the same problem I do when taking my arguments to their logical extremes. I considered using a d6 for locational damage (head, torso, two arms, two legs.... six sides...) but then felt like that was going against the abstract nature of how armor works in Shadowrun.

If you use the torso's Body attribute for a direct gunshot, it doesn't factor in how resilient your organic parts are to outside influences. If you use your organic body's Body rating, it doesn't factor in the toughness of the cybernetic armor.

One potential solution could be to roll Body+Armor using the affected part, and then for leftover damage, making them roll pure natural Body on THAT damage. Of course that could be somewhat overpowered, especially since I have done no playtesting on it whatsoever.

Frank ended up with Straight 8's in his arms and torso, and I can't for the life of me remember how I resolved this particular dilemma, or if I even did.

I wish there were more clarification in the core book on how to handle the new cyberlimbs, especially in this respect. This is a matter that goes beyond pure borg characters; it affects all PCs that get a cybertorso, pretty much.
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