[X] My Assistant

[Ophis]

[emo samurai]

Edited for mistakes.

[Monnock]

[Aaron]

I've been more or less disinterested in this thread (I reckon each GM can handle how much a magician is paid in their own version of 2070), but I happened across something that might help figure this thing out more universally.

Page 304 of the BBB states that a private room with privacy features costs 200¥ per hour. Page 305 states that privacy features include astral wards.

Unless the provider of the room is a non-profit organization, then the 100¥-per-hour fee for the magician(s) creating the ward is for the act of creating it only, not for leaving it there; otherwise the cost of the ward's maintenance would far overreach the price of the room, unless the room is booked 24/7, and even then it wouldn't garner much of a profit.

I suspect that the phrase, "contract to maintain wards" on page 185 means that the magicians contract to come back each week to make sure the ward stays put.

[fool]

I think that I would simply not allow pcs to make money by putting up wards, come up with some logicla reason that it is so and go on. The most obvious reason would be why bother running anymore? Unless the player is a reallllly good role player, money is one of the main reasons for runners to run.
To get back to KK4.0's comment about mages v sammies (yeah yeah I know it's a worn out topic, but I wanna get my .02Y in.) A sammie can fire four smg bursts to the one spell, or 2 grenades without any risk of taking damage from the act of doing such.
I think that control spells are difficult to manage. As a player I like having control thoughts and making the enemy shoot or tackle each other (a rather crude use of the spell) but as a gm, I pile on teh spell defense for just such a reason. Counterspelling foci have become much more important to my mage characters.

[Aaron]

[fool]

yes, but there's plenty of other people, mobsters, yaks, and other underground organisations that would pay decent money or weapons etc for ths services... I just don't see any reason for a runner to do anything like running if they're gonna make that their job. Especially since they no longer (thank goddess) hav ethe dayjob flaw/negative quality.

[Kanada Ten]

There are disadvantages to making Wards. Having runners show up all the time, asking you to make an exception for them, always on call, liability and so on. What's next? You won't let them charge people to Quicken spells?

[James McMurray]

In pretty much every game I run, whether it's Shadowrun, D&D, Rolemaster, or whatever, there always comes a point when someone wants to open their own business. They can do it, but starting up a business is a more than full time job that pays next to nothing (or costs a lot) to start out. That means while everyone is out running the shadows this guy gets to make his one or two rolls to see how much bureacratic red tape he managed to cut through this time. If he's doing an under the table business he avoids red tape but instead has to find a way to get into the trust of the right people. The mob already has people to put up wards, why would they dump a made man to let an outsider in?

Basically, Shadowrun is a game about running the shadows. D&D is a game about trekking through dungeons and slaying dragons. etc. If the game has reached the point where people want to start a business one of two things is happening:

1) The game is not going the way that player wants it to go, so they're striking out on their own to try and make it interesting.

2) You're not paying them enough, and they feel they need more income to get the cool toys they have their eyes on.

If it's the first, talk with the person and see what they'd like. If it's the second, find out what sort of things they're looking for and see about upping the payments or letting them find someone willing to trade the stuff for services rendered.

One thing I've done is have a job where one guy is willing to trade something, but he wants something the group doesn't have. The guy with it wants something else, whose owner wants something. After a few steps in the chain they get to an item that they can reasonably be expected to steal.

[Kanada Ten]

Um, shadowrunners did start their own business; they make their own hours, they choose what jobs they take, when to screw over the customer, etc.

FYI, the mob doesn't have a large magician population; in Seattle the Finnigan family gets magical support from the Merlins, while the other two families hire out. The Yakauza is similar, with some clans having more magic than others. With competition from the Triads, both groups will hire outside mages often to shore up their resources.

Finally, why wouldn't you want them to start their own business, both to use as fronts for money laundering and as something to retire into later on? I usually encourage it.

[James McMurray]

I prefer to play games about shadowrunning. If they want to play accountants let them run the campaign. :)

Edit: to clarify, if they want to set aside money for retirement, be it in the form of a business or whatever, that's cool. If it's gonna be a business, move the money to a different part of the sheet and pick up some business oriented skills, just please don't ask me to roleplay you getting your builder's permit. :)

[James McMurray]

How up to date is that Mob info? i.e. what book is it found in and what year is it for? With the percentage of awakened people rising it stands to reason that the percentage of awakened people in criminal organizations would rise as well.

[Kanada Ten]

Underworld and New Seattle, but the metagame reason for it was to add PC interaction with the groups on more levels. And sure, we should expect them to have a rising percentage of Awakened - why that wouldn't include PCs is beyond me.

[Kremlin KOA]

remember as argent once said "The best Shadowrunners don't need Johnsons"

[James McMurray]

Working for the mob is one thing. Bring the mob / yakuza / whatever in all you want, as long as we're still playing Shadowrun, not Taxmen. Also, Shadowrun (IMO) is supposed to be about challenges in a dark future. In my experience players that want to start a business are usually looking for "free money." Cash without risk has no place in Shadowrun.

And yes, I know that starting a business in SR could involve adventures and troubles on its own, that's just not the game I want to run. We trade off GMing though, so if someone wants a character to start a business, let another GM handle it. :)

[fool]

Ok, I misspoke (typed) I wouldn't necessarily have a blanket prohibition against starting a business, but as someone who has a business, it takes alot more energy and time than you'd think, and if you take time off, say to go on a shadowrun that takes you outta town or have to hideout for a couple weeks, your business tanks and you have to start over.
In the case of wards, I assume that part of the 100/hr cost includes alerting the corp if the ward is penetrated, and therefore, the player has to be on call at all times, kinda a bummer.... you're on a run doing surveilance and suddenly you have to call up the people you threw the ward up for. And don't even start me on the possibilities for conflict of interest.... yeah I'll make a ward for ya, then I'll sli[p a nd rob ya blind.

[ixombie]

Mages are powerful offensively, but they pay by being soft and sqiushie. Read up on the rules of noticing magic- IIRC it's a threshold 0 to notice a force 6 spell being cast, ie if a mage gets on the front lines in combat the enemy knows they're the one frying their buddies and they know who to shoot.

The issue with how vulnerable mundanes are to magic is is solved in one very simple way- make friends with a mage. As long as there's a mage on your team, he can keep you under his spell defense and add his counterspelling to your resistances, meaning that you are no more susceptible to magic than anyone else. If you don't have a mage, just be very careful on jobs where you're likely to meet one. The imbalance is part of the system- to houserule it is to nerf mages and tilt the balance towards sammies- with this house rule sammies can run around resisting spells left and right, and if they have a mage friend, forget about it. This house rule is not wise.

[James McMurray]

Mages don't have to be soft and squishy. Between regular armor, armor spells, reaction enhancing spells, and base stats a mage can be pertty resilient.