I run with an idiot - Dumpshock Forums

I run with an idiot

warrior_allanon View Member Profile	May 6 2006, 10:58 PM Post #1
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 775 Joined: 31-March 05 From: florida Member No.: 7,273	Alright guys, i need a little advice. I have a player in the group i play with that is a complete moron. For instance, in the game today he took over an hour just to get to the arcology and purchace 2 drones and then tells a level 1 contact to pay the last 35000 and sign for the drones when they are delivered in the morning. now in the kids defense he is still a rather new player and 3ed isnt the easiest game to learn. But, he takes stupidity to a new level. what do i do about him.

Sharaloth View Member Profile	May 6 2006, 11:02 PM Post #2
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,093	Talk to them about the SR world and 'realism'. Make him understand that people in the game will react more or less like people in real life, and that Level 1 contacts are not there to pay your bills, but to provide useful information pertaining to their particular specialty and/or other perks of 'knowing the right people'. Also, direct him to the CLUE files so that he may learn from the failures of others. From the example you've given he just seems new to RPG in general, and not actually stupid. If he's actually stupid, this initial period of explanation may take a looooong time.

Fire Hawk View Member Profile	May 6 2006, 11:02 PM Post #3
Target Group: Members Posts: 72 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Oak Ridge, TN, CAS Member No.: 407	Your only example reflects a person who doesn't seem to comprehend that usually, an acquaintance isn't going to shell 35k¥ just out of the kindness of his heart; you're going to have to provide more definitive proof of this players' supposed "idiocy". Sure, this gross assumption of common social habits is rather dense, but it just isn't enough on its own for us to help out. EDIT: Yes, the CLUE files are a good thing. Every potentially stupid/munchkin/rules-lawyer player should read them.

Dog View Member Profile	May 6 2006, 11:15 PM Post #4
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025	Give him a few chances, maybe he'll turn out to be a good player, if you invest some time in him. If not, maybe just drop him. The nature of your relationship outside of gaming is pretty important. Can you tell us more about that?

hyzmarca View Member Profile	May 6 2006, 11:22 PM Post #5
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456	Is the contact a lacky, a stooge, a minion or a cronie? If so, it might not be unreasonable.

emo samurai View Member Profile	May 6 2006, 11:28 PM Post #6
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019	Anyone that indebted to him would have a much higher loyalty rating.

Snow_Fox View Member Profile	May 7 2006, 02:38 PM Post #7
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221	Drown him like an unwanted puppy. no? Too much? Ok just work with him. a little work and he should handle it. maybe burn him just a little. Like his contact signs for the drones, and a few weeks later the drone contact calls about "when do I get paid?" "I left the mnoey with the firend who too kthe drones" "He said you'd pay us later" did the contact pocket the money, or did the drone 'salesman' pocket it and figure the lack of closeness between the player and contact were there would be a problem with the communications. No blood shed here but he's out more nuyen if he wants his drone salesman contact happy.

Wounded Ronin View Member Profile	May 7 2006, 09:24 PM Post #8
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383	Just make him play Rainbow Six. I think everything will fall into place after that.

eidolon View Member Profile	May 7 2006, 09:32 PM Post #9
ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333	Here's a reminder: You were new to the game once too. Here's an opinion: "Newb bashing" is lame. This includes any and all spiteful "burning" of the new player's character done just because he's new and doesn't play the game exactly like you do. Here's some advice: First rule of gaming: don't be a jackass. Be nice, play nice. Teach him the game (the best method of teaching is doing in the case of RPGs), let him read your books, suggest movies to him that you think get the feel across, and above all, just be patient with him. He'll pick it up.

Wounded Ronin

May 7 2006, 09:43 PM

Post #10

Great Dragon

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QUOTE (eidolon)

Here's an opinion: "Newb bashing" is lame. This includes any and all spiteful "burning" of the new player's character done just because he's new and doesn't play the game exactly like you do.

Heh, I have a vaguely funny story about that.

Once upon a time a new guy came to my SR gaming group while I was GMing. This was many years ago. Anyway, I wanted to keep population levels up so I was being as nice as I could to the guy, yadda yadda yadda.

Then, I left the gaming group for the summer. When I came back at the end of the summer that new guy was gone. Apparently the other players had, like, driven him off with torches and pitchforks while I was gone. The others told me that the new guy was too much like "a retarded younger brother". I blinked and then life went on.

Come to think of it, I have played with people who were generally really awesome and kickass to play with but boy oh boy if some of them couldn't put the hating on people they didn't like in the game.

To tell the truth, though, I feel like I kind of went through an initiation of hate when I started playing SR and I think it made me a stronger player. The first SR GM I had was back in high school. I had read a couple of the really old SR novels and I was really digging the 80s ness. I forgot the title of the book because I honestly read it so long ago but it had an elf who had sensei flashbacks and who at one point wore a ukata with a Japanese beer company logo stamped on it. That's the 80s right there, and if I had to point to a single thing that got me playing SR it was probably the sensei-flashback elf with the beer yukata.

Anyway, my first GM was a textbook killer GM. I was often his only player because when other people joined in he'd usually pick on them, make their characters do stupid things by taking every statement literally, and he'd kill us off all the time. He would run modules (the one with Bichu in Amazonia) and I remember we tried it twice but everyone got killed off each time. Heh, he even would do things to make your character look dumb. Like in the Amazonia module I had this shaman who asked the Johnson, "what kinds of awakened creatures can we expect," and he had the Johnson retort, "That's YOUR area of expertise, right?".

The thing is that after rolling up new characters every other game for several years I am at the point when pdeath dosen't bother me. I can now seek real challenges in gaming and apply myself to the challenge presented by the module and at the same time not get all bent out of shape just because my guy dies. In fact, with future GMs, I would often make weak characters so I could maintain the same level of challenge.

My killer GM from high school was kind of like the Wheel of Pain from Conan the Barbarian. By pushing the wheel endlessly in a circle during my formative years I've built myself into a RPG player who can feel proud of himself today. I can say that I feel like I'm a matured challenge-seeker but I got the mental training for that by spending years with a killer GM and going through countless new characters.

hyzmarca

May 7 2006, 10:17 PM

Post #11

Midnight Toker

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QUOTE (emo samurai)

Anyone that indebted to him would have a much higher loyalty rating.

SR3 doesn't have loyalty ratings. Instead the rating of a contact is determined by the character's relationship with that contact. A Level 1 contact is an "aquaintance". A hired stooge with low self-esteem can easily fit into that mold. Level 2 contact is a Buddy and in an evil organization that is pushing dangerously close to being your Number 2.

James McMurray

May 8 2006, 02:06 AM

Post #12

Great Dragon

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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

Like in the Amazonia module I had this shaman who asked the Johnson, "what kinds of awakened creatures can we expect," and he had the Johnson retort, "That's YOUR area of expertise, right?".

That may have been a valid reply. If the Johnson has no knowledge of paranormal critters he would probably assume that the group's mage did. I know I've used replies like taht in the past.

Voran View Member Profile	May 8 2006, 02:12 AM Post #13
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,401 Joined: 23-February 04 From: Honolulu, HI Member No.: 6,099	New guys I don't mind. Any type of player, new or old, who intentionally acts the idiot, I don't like in the group :) In this case, since he's new, it seems he's got a different sorta viewset on what is 'reality' of the sr world. You can also use real world examples. Look, a Level 1 contact is like the gamestore clerk/owner you chat with alot when you go to buy your SR gamebooks, the guy you've bought stuff from for years. You know him through that store, but you don't hang out with him. You guys talk about gamestuff, maybe new comics due out, and lament about the BS comic/game companies put the customer through. Now. Are you going to ask him for 35000 dollars?

Voran View Member Profile	May 8 2006, 02:21 AM Post #14
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,401 Joined: 23-February 04 From: Honolulu, HI Member No.: 6,099	On something of a side note, I'm reading the clue files and in some cases I'm noting its not so much the chars being idiots, but gm being kinda lordish. I'm just thinking in some cases there should be a 'common sense or character sense' kinda roll you can make. I'm a normal dude with no shadowrunner experience, but my char who's an experienced runner should be able to make some sorta roll to see if he remembers or notices he's going to need a particular item for a particular mission before the mission starts. My char forgetting to bring a rope or a flashlight or something because me the player didn't remember to write it down isn't really fair. But that's just me. The alternate I see to that ends up with chars who write everything down just in case. "Is that Tankbot on my requisition form going to be useful today?" Edit: In fact, the more I read stuff, the more I wonder why the GM didn't halt half the stuff in the middle to see what the hell the player was doing. You wanna be an idiot on your own time, fine, but when you're purposefully screwing over other players and their chars, that's a GM fault.

Wounded Ronin

May 8 2006, 02:24 AM

Post #15

Great Dragon

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QUOTE (James McMurray)

QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ May 7 2006, 04:43 PM)

Like in the Amazonia module I had this shaman who asked the Johnson, "what kinds of awakened creatures can we expect," and he had the Johnson retort, "That's YOUR area of expertise, right?".

That may have been a valid reply. If the Johnson has no knowledge of paranormal critters he would probably assume that the group's mage did. I know I've used replies like taht in the past.

The truth is I forgot the details of that module and why the PCs were being hired, so I can't really comment anymore on how knowledgable the Johnson should have been. Nevertheless, though, in the context of this particular GM I think he was just trying to wiggle out of giving me any information. :P

ShadowDragon8685

May 8 2006, 01:01 PM

Post #16

Horror

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QUOTE (Voran)

On something of a side note, I'm reading the clue files and in some cases I'm noting its not so much the chars being idiots, but gm being kinda lordish. I'm just thinking in some cases there should be a 'common sense or character sense' kinda roll you can make. I'm a normal dude with no shadowrunner experience, but my char who's an experienced runner should be able to make some sorta roll to see if he remembers or notices he's going to need a particular item for a particular mission before the mission starts.

My char forgetting to bring a rope or a flashlight or something because me the player didn't remember to write it down isn't really fair. But that's just me. The alternate I see to that ends up with chars who write everything down just in case. "Is that Tankbot on my requisition form going to be useful today?"

Edit: In fact, the more I read stuff, the more I wonder why the GM didn't halt half the stuff in the middle to see what the hell the player was doing. You wanna be an idiot on your own time, fine, but when you're purposefully screwing over other players and their chars, that's a GM fault.

Sadly all-too-common.

About 1/2 of the CLUE file material/ idiot player stories are the players being disconnected with the way the DM sees the "reality", a further 1/4th is the DM being a jackass, and the remaining 1/4th is the players being retarded.

Not knowing that the world of Shadowrun is not so dystopian and miserable that the cops won't give up on you if you throw some egg in their face, throw some bullets at them, and then escape the car chase? That's the players being out of touch with how the DM sees the game world.

Forgetting to write down flashlights and then finding themselves stuck in a sewer by a trash truck whose wheels just happened to park on the manhole cover? That's the DM being a jackass.

Deciding to fly a plane (with no piloting experiance) full of explosives into a crowded stadium to kill one person, and then using a rubber life-raft, some directed exploseves and a piece of metal as an improved safety device? That's the players being retarded.

blakkie

May 8 2006, 01:12 PM

Post #17

Dragon

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QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ May 8 2006, 07:01 AM)

Forgetting to write down flashlights and then finding themselves stuck in a sewer by a trash truck whose wheels just happened to park on the manhole cover? That's the DM being a jackass.

Welcome to the age-old drilled in D&D bean counting mentality of if the "[ubiquitous] item isn't written on the character sheet the character doesn't have it". The player didn't take the time to write down boots? Your character is walking barefoot! Nevermind that the character would have noticed when walking out the front door that they were in their socks. :wobble:

P.S. A hint to try counter such stupid from a GM is to write a couple vague items on the inventory list with names in the form "Xxxx Kit". ;) The Survival Kit is a great example where the list of it's contents includes the catchall "and more". Not complete protection against a Dungeonmaster In Complete Kontrol, but for any D.I.C.K. it doesn't innoculate you against you really have to wonder why you are at their table.

Oracle View Member Profile	May 8 2006, 01:15 PM Post #18
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 934 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Earth - Europe - AGS - Norddeutscher Bund - Hannover Member No.: 7,624	Thank <select-random-divine-entity> that my players and me are close friends and we all want to enjoy a nice friday evening when playing. ^^

nezumi

May 8 2006, 02:09 PM

Post #19

Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet;

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QUOTE (blakkie)

The player didn't take the time to write down boots? Your character is walking barefoot! Nevermind that the character would have noticed when walking out the front door that they were in their socks. :wobble:

No, most likely he'd be naked except for his armor. I still remember the day I arrested half the group because they walked outside wearing nothing but armored jackets! Boy, the guy in the trenchcoat felt pretty lucky that day. Short campaign though. Hmm...

Seriously though, WR's story is a neat example of how a single player grew to meet the challenge. But how many prospective players dropped out? At this point, with Shadowrun taking up such a small market share and with SR3 disappearing, I would prefer to have more players of lesser caliber than a few like WR, since I'm more likely to enjoy a game with the paltry players here in MD than a game with WR in Micronesia (it would be a killer commute).

Be gentle. All newbies should have the 'common sense' flaw for free. All PCs starting with a new GM should have 'common sense' for the first two runs, until everything is sorted out. Unless you explain what you're expecting and what they're doing wrong, they'll never have a chance to correct it. But while you should be gentle, don't be TOO gentle. If the guy is simply going off on hair-brained schemes, enforce the rules.

hyzmarca View Member Profile	May 8 2006, 02:27 PM Post #20
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456	Everyone that doesn't have Licking Electrical Outlets as an artistic knowledge skill for Centering should get Common Sense for free.

Fix-it

May 8 2006, 03:00 PM

Post #21

Creating a god with his own hands

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QUOTE (hyzmarca)

Everyone that doesn't have Licking Electrical Outlets as an artistic knowledge skill for Centering should get Common Sense for free.

That's defninitely going on my next character sheet...

Kremlin KOA View Member Profile	May 8 2006, 04:22 PM Post #22
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650	I prefer "Licking Plasma Screens" Then ya actually do so for the GM

Wounded Ronin

May 8 2006, 11:13 PM

Post #23

Great Dragon

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QUOTE (blakkie)

Welcome to the age-old drilled in D&D bean counting mentality of if the "[ubiquitous] item isn't written on the character sheet the character doesn't have it".

Actually, I try to enforce that to create more of a challenge and problem solving type game. It makes the players take the time to think about items they might need in common situations (a lighter, for example, or a claw hammer) and go through the trouble to bring them. If the players want to make a D.I.C.K. list of items they always bring that's perfectly acceptable. But I think that it detracts from the game if the PCs are able to conjure a hacksaw or a lighter just because they need it even though they obviously weren't thinking about these things before they left their base.

Besides, if you start to allow wiggle room then you have difficulty drawing a firm line. If it's OK for a character to magically have a lighter or a flashlight just because she needs one maybe it's OK to suddenly have a maglite in her hand when she's attacked in melee so she can magically roll clubs 6 (12) instead of unarmed combat 3. If it's OK for the covert ops specialist to magically have a lockpicking kit for a non-maglocked door alongside the set of maglock passkeys that were noted on his character sheet how can I say that he dosen't have a concealed set of lockpicks under his wristwatch which he can use to pick his handcuffs when he gets captured?

If I want to emphasize challenges and puzzles that the characters must overcome one thing we must be perfectly clear about is the helpful equipment they have and do not have. I think it's better to have the PCs mess up one day and then make a D.I.C.K. list than it is for them to just be sprouting the right item at the right time as though they were a team of Swiss Army knives on legs.

Voran View Member Profile	May 9 2006, 01:00 AM Post #24
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,401 Joined: 23-February 04 From: Honolulu, HI Member No.: 6,099	I think there needs to be a balance tho. You can set up an environment to encourage the players themselves to think ahead, but in the context of the fictional characters they portray. When it stops being fun, and becomes bean-counting, there should be changes.

hyzmarca View Member Profile	May 9 2006, 01:27 AM Post #25
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456	Well, that's why kits are useful. One can assume that the tool kit in the trunk of your car contains a maglight. One can assume that the tool kit in the trunk of your car contains several inexpensive items that are quite useless in combat.

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