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 an old edge/flaw in the new game. |
 May 9 2006, 10:21 PM
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#26
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Beetle Eater  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826  |
The vast majority of human history has led to consent laws.
Immigration, actually, not teenage pregnancy.
And what led to society's discouragement?
Care to offer anything like evidence for this? History doesn't seem to agree, in any way, at any time. Children at War, for example, don't grow into well reasoned adults.
No, not at all. The most economically reliable solution is to vat grow babies and require people raise them. [e] The whole argument is implausible anyway, it's like saying we shouldn't allow women to be successful because they are less likely to have children. This post has been edited by Kanada Ten: May 9 2006, 10:31 PM |
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May 9 2006, 10:39 PM
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#27
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
A whole page of stuff edited for misunderstanding.
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May 10 2006, 12:15 AM
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#28
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
That assumes that history is evolutionary rather than revolutionary. There have been many backslides in human social order. the Dark Ages are one such example. The current trend to treat anyone under 30 as mentally feeble is but another example of such drastic mistakes.
Idiocy, pure and simple. Persons are smart. People are stupid. And on any such emotionally charged issue many, many stupid people will chime in. The resulting cacophony drowns out all rational dissenters. It began with prudish Victorian attitudes towards sexuality, which led to the use of various draconian methods to prevent so much as masturbation from minors. This included, but was not limited to, infibulation and clitoridectomy. This anti-sex prudishness continued on until the Babyboomer generation came of age an became hippies. unfortunately, the free love hippie movement lost its steam as the Baby boomer generation grew over and they tended to become over-indulgent conservatives, a very odd combination indeed. Yet, their indulgent conservativism led to the desire to protect people from themselves, including protecting teenagers from their natural physical desires.
Adults at war don't grow into well reasoned adults. Because 5-year-olds don't react well to conditions that would inflict post-traumatic-stress disorder on most battle-hardened adult soldiers is not a good reason to assert that teenagers should be treated like gilded mockingbirds.
I was unaware of the fact that many women gave birth to immigrants. I was referring specifically to birth rates. Immigration, while nice, cannot be used as a reliable way to maintain the working population of an independent nation. It is a great supplement and I am certainly in favor of immigration without limits, but the problems of such dependance should be obvious. Emo: Mechanization is great for the CEO who can fire two-thirds of his workforce and triple his salary but it doesn't help the people who are not being paid because of it. It doesn't matter how many people can be serviced if no one has the money to pay for these services. We produce enough to provide for everyone now but some people still go hungry because they don't have the money to pay for food that simply rots on the store shelf. And when did I say anything about traditional families? I believe never. I did mention the extended family as an example of a support structure but that is all. No, what I wrote was that expecting people to be mature produces maturity. Expecting them to be immature produces immaturity. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. The point isn't that traditional families should be encouraged. The point is that teenagers should be allowed to have sex if they want to and not be metaphorically stoned to death for it as is common now. My point is that if you don't treat people with respect and dignity, even people under the age of 18, you shouldn't expect them to act in a dignified manner. I'm all for progressive free love hippy communes. I'm all for house-husbands breastfeeding the baby while mommy works at her high-priced law-firm. What I am against is denying people freedom of choice and freedom of opportunity just because we know what is best for them . In the long run, adults know what is best for teenagers just like Hitler knew what was best for the Jews. As for the rocks comment. I agree. Humans are just biological machines designed to perpetuate themselves. We have become very good at it but sometimes we et in our own way. Of course, this self-perpetuation isn't limited to biological procreation. It can include intellectual procreation as well. But, when all is said and done, without sustained biological procreation all intellectual creation will fade into dust. As for my culture, I was born and raied in the United States. Personally, I am not at all conservative. I am libertarian pseudoanarchist, to be honest. I do see the usefulness of brutal totalitarian dictatorship when it comes to getting the important things done and that would be a perfered mode of government if I were at the top, although in a very lazie-fair way. I do believe that, asside from what is necessary to maintain independence and quality of life, a do-as-you-please anarchy is probably the preferable social construct. However, if you are going to support freedom you shouldn't do it half-assed. You shouldn't say that there is a portion of the population who are slaves for no other reason than their age. |
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May 10 2006, 12:19 AM
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#29
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
Or the Germans.
Your clarification runs counter to what I thought you did. But if you're worried about distribution of wealth, then quasi-socialism is really the answer, not depleting the earth of undeveloped land. And even if one-child-per-couple keeps on through the rest of human history, I don't see the human race dying out with the population halving every generation simply because there is a fuckload of people. And how does rampant procreation improve intellectual development? |
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May 10 2006, 12:22 AM
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#30
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Before entering into a sociological discussion with hyzmarca, one should be aware that his answer to avoiding gang violence as a 12 year old white kid in little mexico is to have your rich daddy buy you a gun and then move to a utopia.
You've been warned. :) |
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May 10 2006, 12:22 AM
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#31
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
I remember. Making sure the gangsters around you are on the ground instead of you and all that. DUR.
How is he so retarded about sociology but is still able to argue rationally about this game? |
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May 10 2006, 12:35 AM
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#32
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
I think we're arguing different points then. I'm not saying teenagers should be treated like babies, but I don't think treating them as fully reasoning adults makes any more sense (hell, treating most adults as fully reasoning is futile - that's why we have society). Allowing adults to procure younglings as breeding material has never shown benefits to society
No, actually, consent laws begin long before this. They are already fully formed by Aristotle, at that time making those under the age of majority property of their father - unable to give consent or dissent.
Bull. This isn't about expectations, it's about reasoning. Expecting adult level reasoning from under 14 year olds is nonsense. Punishing immature behavior in these ages does make sense, enforcing rules of adults on immaturity does make sense, and teaching through example does make sense.
Last I checked, teenage pregnancy among non-immigrants did not give a positive growth rate in America. It is only because of immigration that America has a positive growth rate. We're currently at 1 percent growth with an estimated fertility rate of 2 (2 children per family). That doesn't mean teenage pregnancy isn't helping keep that number up. However, it does mean that our society doesn't give an incentive to people to have children once they think rationally. Unplanned pregnancy is not a sign of a good parent in the making.
Untrue. The current trend in America is to treat 9 year olds as cold blooded killers. [e]
Note that a large percentage of this is due to first birth, but not all, not all by far. It also doesn't seem to change between societies from West Bengal, India to those in the US. This post has been edited by Kanada Ten: May 10 2006, 01:05 AM |
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May 10 2006, 01:11 AM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 684 Joined: 8-April 06 From: My dorm room Member No.: 8,438 |
May I draw your attention to Godwin's Law and reductio ad Hitlerum. I believe you have officially lost, hyz. ;) What's more, I understand that Hitler and the Nazis never claimed to want to "do what was best for the Jews" anymore than someone who hires an exterminator wants to "do what is best for the bugs." They wanted the Jews annhilated, plain and simple. I don't think that most parents want to wipe their children from the face of the earth, so your analogy is a false one. |
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May 10 2006, 01:17 AM
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#34
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Reasoning is a skill that is honed with practice like any other. You might as well say that math shouldn't be taught in schools since children can't do math at an "adult level" and then expect them to magically perform calculus at 18. The only way they''ll learn is through practice and the sooner they begin practicing the more and the faster they'll learn. The fertility rate in the United States is 2.8, slightly over the replacement rate. |
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May 10 2006, 01:19 AM
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#35
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
I don't think he's against children learning; just not in a way that impairs them permanently, like having a child.
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May 10 2006, 01:21 AM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
This argument is boring. I like banging the shit out of young girls.
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May 10 2006, 01:22 AM
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#37
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Nonsense, again. You're suggesting that we trust reasoning on them while i'm suggesting we teach it to them. You're expecting a 13 year old to perform calculus without training while I'm having her work at a tested level (average will be trigonometry).
What's your source? I was looking at UNICF data for 2004, which could be wrong. But:
How young? Seriously, cosmetic surgery, even genetic engineering, androids, and so on... How necessary is it that the girl actually be young rather than appear in all ways young? This post has been edited by Kanada Ten: May 10 2006, 01:27 AM |
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May 10 2006, 02:22 AM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
God, can't get the quote takes to work.
I completely agree with Kanada Ten's opinions on modifications regarding the subject. I just found the argument boring, and decided to toss something out there to divert people. |
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May 10 2006, 02:23 AM
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#39
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
Why couldn't it be something funny and stupid, like Mechashiva?
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May 10 2006, 04:46 AM
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#40
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Biology would suggest otherwise. If anything, the curriculum is too lax in this case. If intellectual and emotional matruity do not match biological maturity in the average individual then someone has gone very wrong somewhere. While it is biology that is at fault in some cases, such as precocious puberty, in many cases it is emotional and intellectual conditioning that is at fault. My source is the CIA, although I was using 2005 numbers. It has gone up a point this year. http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbo...r/2127rank.html I assume that the CIA would know snce they put microchips in our water to keep track of these things. And to bring us back on topic, a nanotech tracking implant would make a great flaw. It would, of course, fall under the old Mysterious Cyberware flaw but it would have the advantage of not costing essence. Whereever and whatever you do you go they will know it. Whoever they are. |
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May 10 2006, 05:22 AM
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#41
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I'd LOVE to see a source for that! |
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May 10 2006, 05:27 AM
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#42
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398 |
I'd have never put you as a pedophile, hyzmarca. Pedophilia is evil. People who support it are evil. People who commit it are evil. Death is too good for them. If I could find you, I'd castrate you without a second thought.
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May 10 2006, 05:36 AM
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#43
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I personally would never trust a 13 year old to make any rational decisions. Having been a thirteen year old myself, and knowing what I know aboutthe ways the thirteen year old mind can work, especially when there's a booby around, I'd rather see people mature a little physically before entrusting them as heads of state (or even heads of households).
That said, there are some incredibly stupid things in our (USA's) laws concerning "legal adulthood." The biggest of which is also the most widely mentioned: why can someone fight and die for our country at 18 but can't have a beer until 21? |
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May 10 2006, 05:37 AM
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#44
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I think you're bringing us back to the wrong "on topic." ;) |
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May 10 2006, 05:56 AM
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#45
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
ye gods, talk about lighting a fuse...
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May 10 2006, 06:15 AM
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#46
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Love of Children? Not at all. If I ever expressed my views on infanticide that would become obvious. However, I support basic human rights and do not believe that they should be denied to anyone for any reason unless the human in question annoys me personally. Problems arise when people refuse to treat children and teenagers like actual human beings (Columbine, anyone?). I don't see any point in dehumanizing the young in order to protect them from themselves. If they make mistakes then they make mistakes. Everyone has to learn somehow and experience is the very best teacher. |
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May 10 2006, 06:20 AM
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#47
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
Not... not like THAT...
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May 10 2006, 06:56 AM
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#48
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Ranked 131: United States 2.09 (children per mother) 2006 est from your CIA. Below 2.1 is not considered growth, from what I understand. [e] I'm too lazy to look it up again, but pregnancy among teens was on a decrease the last three years, while the rate of many STDs was constant. I can find it again if you care, but it does show that abstinence teaching isn't working at all (duh). For the record, I'm not talking about limiting teenage sex. I'm talking about limiting dominate matures from wasting salvageable human production units. And I can't believe you'd bring up Columbine and Hilter in the same thread.
Back this up with something. I've already shown that pregnancy under 17 is high risk, and I can probably show it creates more "emotionally immature" children with a few links - but it's your turn to do more than talk.
The human mind developes based on the needs of the person. If some one is taught multiple languages they have a better chance of learning it at a young age; the speed of this development happens in stages, slowing as the child grows older. Practice causes improvement - but it also takes resources of the mind, narrows the development field. The more things pushed onto children cause less absorbtion of all. Adding sex and pregnancy to a pre-14 year old schedule only lowers their ability to grow into cognitive adults. There is no evidence that allowing adult-adolescent sexual relations benefits anyone; you haven't shown any, at the very least. This post has been edited by Kanada Ten: May 10 2006, 07:11 AM |
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May 10 2006, 07:04 AM
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#49
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
So 2.8 (the original number given, said to be for 2005) + 1 (the one point rise specified by the link to the source) = 2.09? That must be hyzmarca math. :rotfl:
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May 10 2006, 07:58 AM
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#50
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Hyperbole. Besides, this isn't Usenet.
I missed a zero. Sue me. With this craptastic computer I have you're lucky that I didn't miss a 2.
Okay then. http://www.soton.ac.uk/mediacentre/news/20...ov/05_206.shtml Sexual maturity is designed by nature to coincide with the level of psycological maturity required to function in society. That that is not the case today is the fault of society. Coming from the assumption that a 14 year old does not have the skills to fully function in a modern industrial society one can still assume that a 14 year old has the maturity to function in a hunter-gather society, which includes the maturity to make basic reproductive choices. |
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