 Unlimited Subscriber List |
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 May 9 2006, 06:24 PM
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#1
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465  |
In the "Subscriber List" portion of the Augmented Reality section in SR4 (sorry no page ref!), it's mentioned Subscriber Lists can be unlimited in size, but only Systemx2 nodes can be communicate at a time.
I can see this limitation being needed for drones, IC, Agents, etc., but I find it hard to believe that when using the term node to define a network, that it could only control Sysx2 devices like cameras, maglocks, light fixtures, toasters, etc. For typically average rating systems (3) you could only control 6 devices at a time? Not that the other devices on your subscriber list would cease to function, but you couldn't monitor, say, all the coffee pots in building 1 without having lots of supporting terms (nodes) in place? I know something alone these lines has been argued but I'm struggling with the limitations of an unlimited subscriber list but lots of devices (nodes) attached. Anyone got a better read on this than I? Thanks, ~GTT |
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May 9 2006, 06:26 PM
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#2
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
My opinion: use the rules for the important stuff. For monitoring coffee machines, just say that it happens. :)
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May 9 2006, 06:37 PM
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#3
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
What makes you think the coffee machine needs to be controlled? I mean, maybe during daylight savings or something. Mostly, a master node can connect to it, tell it to Do Stuff, and let it be. I'm sure the coffee machine can handle its job with its device rating of 1 or 2 ("Share and Enjoy!").
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May 9 2006, 06:43 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 06 From: San Francisco Member No.: 8,275 |
I assumed there aren't any software Police, so any device in a corporate locale is going to be running the corporate software at System rating 6. That being said, a lot of little Response 2 System 6 "hubs" would only cost a couple hundred nuyen a pop at bulk rates, so they're probably all over the place. They would only run Command and a single Agent, and that's all they would need. There's probably such a hub for every kitchen, cubicle, or hallway in a Wired building.
Central Processing talks to the hubs as necessary, but they don't run any programs, they're really just routers. And I can hear the IT folk now: "Yeah, one of the mysteries of computer science is that you can't hook up more than 12 addresses to any one device. I know, strange drek, we can hold more text than a human could read in his lifetime in a grain of sand, but our Mainframe can only connect 12 users, max." That's a joke, I know some of you are houseruling around this. |
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May 9 2006, 08:25 PM
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#5
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
My concern here was cameras more than coffee makers or toasters but aside from the importance they are technically bound by the same rules in SR4. For example: Three Rating-4 Router-Nodes subscribe 8 cameras each (Sysx2). One Rating-6 "Master Security Node" subscribes the three router-nodes. If I were in the "Master Security Node" could I monitor all 24 cameras since those nodes can interact with three nodes on the subscriber list? Also, once hacked in as Security/Admin, do all my actions now use Computer Skill since I am "Legit" or am I still considered Hacking? Also, I'd assume none of my actions would be questioned unless I am trying to hack something my access doesn't allow. How would an Analyze program know I am not a legit user if I was using a legit account to access the system? Any more thoughts? Thanks, ~GTT |
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May 9 2006, 08:55 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 06 From: San Francisco Member No.: 8,275 |
Sure. Being subscribed to a device and receiving data from a device are not the same thing. You could actually have all 24 cameras subscribed as the same device and get all their feeds in individual windows in your field of view, but you couldn't tell one to switch angles without telling them all to switch angles.
Yes, for all intents and purposes you are a Legit user. There nothing specific about how patrolling IC will detect you, but they would probably roll Analyze + Firewall versus your Stealth + Firewall, same roll as when you came in. While your faked account may be good, it's never perfect. |
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May 10 2006, 03:30 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 108 Joined: 12-March 06 From: TX Member No.: 8,363 |
Most of the time, yes, I would consider it normal access and use the computer skill. As long as you stay within normal account privileges and accesses it would be fine, with a few exceptions; if you try to access encrypted or passcoded files or travel to a higher security "tier" within a system. For that, I would still consider it a hacking. Any action against a protected data item (encrypted or passcoded file) in the system would allow one attempt to any IC currently scanning the node you're in to see through your Stealth program. Basicly I see it as IC finding missing header or security data improperly formatted, or that your accessing via a restricted port, something small, but none the less important. Also, on any glitch when doing one of these tasks I would allow IC one chance to spot you. I have no real basis in the rules for this, it's just the way I see it going. Of course you could always hack their security files and create a hidden account for yourself, then log out an log into it. |
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May 10 2006, 03:40 AM
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#8
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Random Thought: I wonder if corporations could somehow make the security files just an encrypted node address that the comm checks when given a passcode. The remote node responds with a validation or denial and a new node address. These nodes would be corp owned and moderately secure, but gather the passcodes from a very secure host deep in that corporation's node territory. Every time a new node address is given (aka, every time someone logs on), the old node gathers a new passcodes for the next comm (or node, I suppose) and the new node is given the passcodes for the previous comm, both via the secure node. Then corporations could have control over the passcodes even if the comm is out of system. It would also only allow minimal user control in hidden mode or when off-line. |
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May 10 2006, 03:52 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 909 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626 |
You're getting hung up on the word "communicate" without latching onto "at one time." So you've got your bog standard System:3 home comm. There are 4 door locks, six window alarms, coffee maker, refridgerator, soyfood dispenser, Trid display, and a Sensurra Wall for a total of 15 devices. The window alarms are grouped so they only count as one system cutting it down to 12 (the door locks are left individually controlled so you don't have to unlock the entire house to open the safe). The Comm keeps one channel free for an alarm signal from either the doors or the windows which means the Trid, Sensurra Wall, fridge, dispenser, and coffee maker could all be communicating with the core system. But they won't. The coffee maker only talks to the house comm when a) it needs more supplies or b) the owner changes the coffee maker schedule. We're talking 1 second every 2-3 days. The fridge gets chatty when the RFID tags on the milk goes bad and does an inventory update every time the door is opened/closed; again maybe 30 seconds a day. Ditto for the soyfood dispenser. So the Trid & Wall will be the big bandwidth hogs, with the rest chiming in for momentary bursts throughout the day. |
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May 10 2006, 04:20 PM
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#10
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
Phone Book = Subscriber List Phone = Commlink talking to subscribed systems (Think conference call with Rating X 2 callers) You can talk to anyone on your subscriber list, but only as many as you can conference call at a time. |
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May 10 2006, 05:26 PM
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#11
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
So you list 15 items, and only some of your 15 will be communicating constantly, and the rest only intermittently, so everything works fine.
The problem is, you're basically saying "640k of memory should be enough for anybody" Just because you are only considering 15 items, doesn't mean that there won't be hundreds of items trying to communicate at one time. In a (admittedly fictitious) society where even your underwear has a computer in it, assuming that out of a family's entire set of belonging there will never be more than 12 items that want to connect at a single time is, IMO, the single most absurd part of SR4. Your assumption that only a small fraction of the total devices will need to connect at one time is fine, but I think the total number of devices is being dramatically underestimated by everyone. Um, in case anyone's still wondering, I'm firmly in the camp that house rules limits for trivial devices away, and only counts the Systemx2 limit for system intensive devices such as simsense feeds, drone controls, etc. |
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May 10 2006, 05:27 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 371 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Regina Member No.: 8,145 |
So even your "average" corp security node (or node cluster) will have a fairly complex "switching" type algorithm where it will communicate will all of its subscribed devices in "bursts."
However, I will re-iterate that I still don't think that Response decrease rules (for multiple programs) should apply to "mainframe" type computers. |
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May 10 2006, 08:11 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 909 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626 |
Actually what I'm saying is that it's okay for low priority devices to take turns OR be passive an only communicate when contaced by the Host. That's what happens IRL with wireless devices or even wired devices in a hub system. All those RFID tags are PASSIVE devices; they only dump data when asked. Therefore the fifty bajillion RFID tags are moot since they only respond when the Host asks them a question. Most other devices are also able to operate autonomously without interaction with the Host. Coffee makers, refridgerators and even elevators rely on their own hardware for normal operations. Only under an alarm condition will the Host computer begin interfering with the regular activities. Lemme do a much larger example. System:6 building comm system so max 12 active devices. The devices that operate individually are: 50 door locks two elevators (one public, one freight) Devices that operate in groups are: 75 tilt/pan security cameras (though individuals can be broken out as needed) 250 security sensors (fixed cameras, motion sensors, glass break sensors, RFID scanners, etc) 20 coffee machines 20 soda machines 10 refridgerators 15 microwaves 12 Roombas The building reserves 2 channels for high priority alarms (intrusion, fire, etc), 1 channel for low priority alarms (device failures), 1 channel for door activity, 1 channel for non-alarm security sensor data and 1 channel for the video camera feed to the security team. That leaves six channels for common use. The convenience devices will only initiate a connection to the host when there is a device failure (low priority alarm channel) or they run completely out of supplies. Otherwise the host probably initiates regular status checks when system activity is low. The doors will have continuous chatter but the typical 2-3 second pause between swiping the card and the door unlocking is more than plenty of time with 1 reserved channel, even if all doors were swiped at once (~60ms). Assuming the doors spill over to the common use channels there is zero chance anyone would notice a delay. Most security sensors provide null data and would only let the host know when something changed. Some sensors (RFID or motion) might provide semi-continuous streams of data but since the communication is only 1-way (to the host) it won't overwhelm the single device channel allocated. During a building emergency (intrusion/fire) the Host will immediately communicate with all devices based on priority giving it a stock response (intrusion = doors lock, elevators freeze, and all convenience devices are shut off at leisure, fire = doors open from inside, elevators go to next floor and then lock open, heat-generating convenience devices are powered off first followed by the rest). This immediate IF/THEN logic would even preceed Agent intervention since it would happen at the same time the data is relayed to a living security staffer or an Agent. I figure any copiers/printers/scanners will be handled by the "business data" side of security vs. the "physical" security/building admin team. |
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