My Assistant
Site Message
(Message will auto close in 2 seconds)
  |
 How sympathetic are you to your NPC's? |
 May 10 2006, 11:32 PM
Post
#26
|
|||
|
Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383  |
Didn't Vietcong have you pull out family photos and crap when you searched dead VC? Making a backstory for each NPC actually sounds pretty cool but I don't think that as a GM I'd be able to make a convincing backstory for each and every dude the PCs kill. As I've said before once I sent 100 physads against the PCs in a game. There's no way I could have had satisfactory backstories for all of them. I feel like if you were going to make good backstories for all the NPCs you'd have to run a kind of campaign where the PCs only fight small groups of "superior" adversaries instead of large groups of medium ones. It would really color the feel of the campaign because there would be no such thing as Lone Star cordoning off the block and sending the SWAT team after you. Instead, the worst Lone Star would do would be to send Inspector Zenigata, the super troll who for some reason is almost immune to magic as well as bullets, after you, just so that after the PCs go through a lot of work to kill Zenigata you throw a xeroxed piece of paper at them summarizing that character. |
||
 |
 
|
||
|
May 11 2006, 12:01 AM
Post
#27
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i don't sympathize with all of my NPCs, or even with all of my PCs, but i do try to empathize with them--to understand how they think and feel, even if i disagree with what ultimately drives them. very few people see themselves as evil, or weak, or as being possessed of other negative qualities. what i normally do is look at certain base assumptions--"everyone should be treated equally" is a good one--and change them to varying degrees. for instance:
-every person should be treated equally, but metahumans aren't people. -every person should be treated equally; metahumans are getting too much special treatment, so they need to be taken down a peg. -every person should be treated according to their inherent worth. |
|
|
|
|
May 11 2006, 01:00 AM
Post
#28
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 14-April 06 Member No.: 8,463 |
I don't know if this is along the same lines, but I've made 7 security guards for one scenario. They aren't just gonna be generic, "Hey you! Stop right there!" red shirt types. I've based them on people I've worked with in the security field. (yes, I was once a security guard, I know... :( ) I plan on having these NPCs react the way I think the RL people they're based on would react.
As far as the antagonist, well the antagonist is actually a corp and those that do their bidding. And we all know that corps aren't very sympathetic... |
|
|
|
|
May 11 2006, 01:12 AM
Post
#29
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
You don't feel that having only sevel medium/low caliber opponents to use against the PCs is a sufforcating limitation? Once an ex-Marine told me, "if the mission is worth your dying for then it's worth killing someone for." What if the PCs just systematically blow through the facility fragging rooms and killing the enemy as quickly as possible? Then you only had 7 guys to challenge them and if the PCs were doing things "right" there was no chance at all for those personalities to manifest. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 11 2006, 05:52 AM
Post
#30
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 14-April 06 Member No.: 8,463 |
Hee Hee You're gonna love this, that's not seven guards at any given time. That's the total amount of gaurds assigned to "protect" the building. That would be two for each shift, plus a split shift between morning and day. (e.g., 1st, 2nd, and 3rd with a midshift between 1st and 2nd). My reasoning for the small security staff is that the building is in a AA security zone. So they can't go in there gunz a blazin, well they could but then they would prolly end up dead. Then there's the fact that there is always one gaurd on patrol and one at the console. With regular radio check when a floor is complete taking anywhere from 20 to 45 minutes a floor. In addition to this, if the job is done during the graveyard shift, the guards also perform checks on the elevators which involve radio communication and intercom checks. So while one guy might be alone at the console the other guy is always calling him for time checks and such. I don't know, it seemed decent enough given the security rating of the area. Maybe I was counting on the runners caring about that fact (the security rating) a little too much. It's not like they'll be the only ones in the building. On any given night there would be 1d6 people working late, plus the cleaning service and eventually the courriers and delivery services. Oh, and the bread delivery for the deli or the newspaper delivery for the coffee shop. Damn I almost forgot the print service attached to the building, that place has people working 24/7. I would certainly accept some suggestions, if that doesn't seem like enough stuff for the runners to think about, seriously. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 11 2006, 09:25 AM
Post
#31
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 58 Joined: 9-May 06 From: Right behind you! Member No.: 8,538 |
Actually... depending on the personalities of your runners/players, that might be a good idea. With security that light (well, perhaps light isn't the right term -- spotty? filled with holes for the opportunistic?) I know I would strongly consider just avoiding it and getting on with my business quietly. Of course, YMMV depending strongly on your group.
|
|
|
|
|
May 11 2006, 02:43 PM
Post
#32
|
|
|
Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
I've gotten good enough that I don't produce all the backstories before the PCs encounter them for low-level baddies. I either make them up on the spot, or even just leave little momentos without necessarily fully explaining the background, and let the PCs fill in the detail. My PCs could stop every Joe on the street and I think I'm creative enough that each one would have his own name, backstory, preferences, etc.
Because my wife has actually done things like this, it's really pushed my improvisational GMing skills. |
|
|
|
|
May 12 2006, 12:21 AM
Post
#33
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: 28-April 06 Member No.: 8,507 |
@Wounded Ronin: If you like Draco Malfoy now, just wait til you get to Half-Blood Prince. Now that's a sympathetic villain.
|
|
|
|
|
May 13 2006, 08:54 PM
Post
#34
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
I think I am similar to mfb. I am not going to be sympathetic to all of my major NPCs, but I still like to know what makes them tick, how they see themselves, and why they do what they do. For an example, you can look at Weber's Honor Harrington series, and one of the early antagonists, Pavel Young. The guy is slime, but all the way, you know the reasons for his actions, the way he justifies them, and his point of view. I think NPCs all need plausible motivations. Those motivations don't need to by sympathetic ones, but they should still make sense.
But keep in mind that not every NPC will be a horrible villain, just as the PCs are not exactly traditional heroes. And the PCs won't necessarily always see a complex NPC as such. If they are facing down an NPC, they will often be more concerned with blowing him away than with understanding how his abusive parents made him that way. Don't try to force an NPC's backstory down the PCs' throats - just relax and let the personality of your NPCs come out when it is natural. And if an NPC gets blown away before you get a chance to use any of it, just use it for a similar NPC later. |
|
|
|
|
May 14 2006, 08:40 AM
Post
#35
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 204 Joined: 27-October 05 From: Waterloo, ON Member No.: 7,900 |
I'm not sure that Draco is sympathetic in Half-Blood Prince. I mean, not to give spoilers, but I don't entirely think he makes his decisions out of anything but cowardice.
|
|
|
|
|
May 14 2006, 02:01 PM
Post
#36
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
And that isn't sympathetic? Excuse me, Mr. Übermensch.
~J |
|
|
|
|
May 14 2006, 02:38 PM
Post
#37
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025 |
When it comes to fleshing out NPC's, the key to me is motivation. For a lot of the red-shirts in the same environment doing the same job, the motivation is close enough to group them together. "Catch the bad guys without risking getting shot." or something like that, depending. Beyond that, I find that I just throw a quirk or a feature out there to make each NPC non-clone-ish. "The chubby guy is running for cover but the Jamaican is drawing a gun." etc.
As well, I keep some uncommitted backgrounds on hand for various NPC types. For example, a page describing how one sec-guard has a family and is struggling to make ends meet, so he's more corruptible, while the next describes a guy who is idealistic straight out of corp indoctrination. Then, if I happen to discover that I need a background -a guy gets captured or approached for a bribe or whatever- I just grab the first background paper I see and say "okay that's this guy." So I don't have to write a ton of character development that I'll never use, but I have one when I need one. When it comes to major NPC's, recurring villains or allies, I usually only write enough to justify what I want them to do, then throw in a few basic traits to make them more human. I tend to leave the rest open, so that I can justify other things that I might want later. As an example, there's a fixer who has connections to the military and a bunch of professional background stuff, 'cause I need it for the plot. Later, a PC's son is kidnapped. Hmmm... I want the fixer to help the character out to give the players a break, so now I write a little family background; the fixer has a kid the same age.... |
|
|
|
|
May 15 2006, 12:09 AM
Post
#38
|
|||||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Thing is that if the PCs followed a pretty standard military procedure (frag the room, clear it, move on to the next) they'd essentially systematically kill everyone in the office especially if there were only 2 guards. Notice I'm not saying, "if the PCs are evil," "if the PCs are sadistic," or "if the PCs make things explode for the sake of making things explode." If they just follow a very basic military strategy they'll probably blaze through the office and be gone within 5 minutes and none of these character backgrounds will emerge. The process dosen't necessarily need to be loud. They might use flashbangs or tear gas and suppressed SMGs to do it "quiet" in a high security zone but they could still basically sweep through the office and kill everyone before anyone realized what was going on. See, the thing is, all of this personality and character background coming out depends on the PCs entering the office building with a non-war mentality. The idea that they're going to go in quiety, talk to people, use fast talk, use disguises, whatever, is a non-war mentality. But, considering how the PCs *are* black market mercenaries and all, if they go in acting like mercenaries at war, they could just as easily go the "safe" route by blasting through the rooms as described above and leaving with what they came for within 5 minutes or so. Note that this is a different approach than grandstanding and acting like an angel of death, which would take a lot longer and would indeed give time for the AA zone to retaliate. In other words, the whole system you described depends on the PCs either approaching in "social manipulation" mode, OR in them going "disorganized slow berzerk" mode so the AA zone can come and spank them. If the PCs chose to treat their job as a military operation, and they went in, fragged all the rooms, grabbed the briefcase, and left by manhole or something within a very short amount of time, then there'd pretty much not really be any real resistance of challenge for the PCs with only two guards. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
May 15 2006, 12:15 AM
Post
#39
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Lol, I'll probably start reading book 6 today. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 15 2006, 06:24 AM
Post
#40
|
|
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
The problem with him is that he sees no alternative to his cowardice; life for him is running from one decision he doesn't want to make to another.
So yeah, read it. And what about this NPC? He's a corp kid who's got a history of drunken attempted rape and he wants to buy a famous Seattle bar because of the status associated with it. He has threatened the owner with violence against his customers if he doesn't sell, and the owner's willing to pay the runners 60k :nuyen: each if they kill him spectacularly. So... sympathy? |
|
|
|
|
May 15 2006, 12:38 PM
Post
#41
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Yep, sympathy.
~J |
|
|
|
|
May 15 2006, 02:46 PM
Post
#42
|
|
|
Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Only attempted? Lightweight.
Yeah, definitely sympathy. Otherwise you may as well flick a card with stats at your players. |
|
|
|
|
May 15 2006, 03:13 PM
Post
#43
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 80 Joined: 3-May 04 Member No.: 6,299 |
I don't make all my NPC's sympathetic. Generally, it depends on the role I see that NPC fulfilling.
Some of them are tragic, and you can't helo but feel a connection to them, some others are full-blooded and god-awful bastards who you'd have to be crazy to associate with, and still others who are just there to be a faceless goon during a gunfight. It all just depends on the NPC. |
|
|
|
|
May 15 2006, 05:46 PM
Post
#44
|
|
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
He doesn't need to be sympathetic in order to be something more than a card of stats to the players; he can be a total bastard in a very painstakingly detailed way.
And SL, you are SO gritty and street level. Dur. :D |
|
|
|
|
May 15 2006, 07:13 PM
Post
#45
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
empathy, at least. no sympathy, from me--i don't have much of that to spare, anyway--but i can empathize with the asshole corp kid character. and that, honestly, is all you need to bring him to life.
well. that, and some acting skillz. |
|
|
|
|
May 15 2006, 08:51 PM
Post
#46
|
|
|
Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Yeah, well.
It's not that I sell them as sympathetic. I just can't build them very well (if at all) if I don't personally care about them. |
|
|
|
|
May 16 2006, 12:39 AM
Post
#47
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
I just did. I dunno, I still feel a bit sympathetic to Malfoy in book 6. In the end he's just a snarky kid and all of a sudden Voldemort is leaning on him. I dunno, he just dosen't inspire dislike in me or anything. In any case, I have one conclusion about Dumbledore after reading book 6. You ready to hear it? Dumbledore spent too much time playing Nethack and not enough time playing Dungeons and Dragons. That is all. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 16 2006, 01:11 AM
Post
#48
|
|
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
Huh?
|
|
|
|
|
May 16 2006, 01:20 AM
Post
#49
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Let me put it this way so as not to give this thread a hot spoiler injection. Towards the end of book 6 Dumbledore goes and does something which would be expected in Nethack but which would be utterly stupid in a game of D&D. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 16 2006, 07:42 AM
Post
#50
|
|
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
What would that be? [/spoiler] it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 13th April 2022 - 12:54 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.