[X] My Assistant

[mrcatman]

My group has just bought SR4 and will be playing it shortly. We played 2nd and 3rd edition (some of us even 1st). We have 2 quick questions for you gurus...

1) Orthoskin cannot be combined with Dermal Plating, per both descriptions. However, there is no mention of whether or not either one can be combined with Mystic Armor, the Armor spell or Troll's natural armor. If you had a Troll Adept (1/1) with Mystic Armor 4 (4/4), and Orthoskin 3 (3/3) wearing an armor jacket (8/6), would his B/I armor really be 16/14?

2) Orthoskin, Mystic Armor, the Armor spell & the Troll's natural armor all say they stack (are cumulative) with worn armor. Dermal Plating doesn't make mention one way or the other. Does Dermal Plating stack (is cumulative) with worn armor?

Thank you for your time.

REFERENCE PAGES:
Orthoskin bioware (SR4, p.339)
Dermal Plating cyberware (SR4, p.333)
Mystic Armor adept power (SR4, p.188)
Armor spell (SR4, p.202)
Troll's natural armor (SR4, p.73)

[Butterblume]

1) yes
2) yes

But remember, unlike as inSR3, an armor rating of 16 doesn't make you invicible.

[Big D]

Why stop there? Theoretical Troll (assuming 5 magic and less than 1 point ess used) with full armor could hit 20/18 and pretty much soak normal rounds fired by anyone who isn't a gunbunny.

Of course, I'd really recommend a pain editor (after start), because everything short of a tank round is going to be S damage.

[Glayvin34]

And you'll be paying at least 30 BP for a magic of 2 to have Mystic Armor, 5 to be an Adept, 40 BP to be a Troll, and 18 to pay for the Orthoskin. That's 93 BP, or almost half of your starting BP and 90,000 nuyen, or a little less than half of your maximum starting cash.
But maybe you don't want to be versatile.

[Big D]

Wait, isn't adept armor limited to [Magic] ranks?

You'd have to take Magic 5, then, so that you'd have 4 left over after chrome.

However, you could drop adept and just blow cash... bone density, bone lacing, and reaction enhancer are just as good as armor for reducing damage (reaction is actually better, because it increases the chance of 0 damage), and synaptic boost both does that and lets you kill people faster.

You won't be able to max everything (especially booster), but you can still munch it out.

[Glayvin34]

[mrcatman]

[Glayvin34]

That looks close to me, except he does have to get Magic 6 that is then reduced by 2 for the essence loss. FYI, they did post some updated numbers somewhere that deal with the Sample Characters be inaccurate to the rules.
This character is going to be doing A LOT of sitting around during Matrix Actions, Astral stuff, any neogotiating or legwork, any travel, that kind of thing. But if that's what the player wants then it's not wrong.

[mdynna]

They've released a lot of errata on those sample characters, so get them from the website before you go basing decision based on them.

Second, you have a major oversite with this character: essence loss affects your Magic rating. Essence loss reduces the Magic that you have purchased. So, if your character is down to 4.25 Essence, they have lost 2 points. You have purchased a Magic of 4, so that should be reduced to 2. You will need to purchase a Magic of 6 in order to have an "effective" Magic of 4 with 4.25 Essence. That will chew up another 35 BP (remember 25 BP for the max of 6) for this character.

Under SR3, Dermal Plating and Orthoskin overrode the Troll's natural armor, that makes Trolls much more powerful now.

[ronin3338]

I think I would house rule that for SR4 too, at least for the dermal. My thinking is that we are replacing the natural dermal structures with manufactured ones.

[Lagomorph]

[James McMurray]

You forgot to bring your helmet and ballistic shield for (IIRC) a total of 23/18. :)

[Ranneko]

[fool]

furthermore, the attributes did all add up to under 200 if you took out, edge, magic, and resonance.
WIth my group, most characters start out with the standard issue jacket and helmet. pretty reasonable as long as they don't have to do anything like go into a posh hotel (happened in the last run, I stayed in the car)

[Glyph]

Imp.Phy.Attr/Reaction 1 would cost 2 points, not one, since you are raising it over the racial maximum. He would be better off getting 2 points of Combat Sense instead. Although to have a magic of 4, he will need to actually buy it at 6, as others have said.

Under SR3, trolls did get to add their natural dermal armor to things like dermal plating (as looking at the archetypes will demonstrate), so I don't think SR4 would be any different.

[Shrike30]

And this is why the man invented APDS ammunition :)

[ixombie]

The oh-so sad thing about having 9 body and 16/14 armor is that you're not invincible, at least not on the level of an SR3 tank troll. 25 dice is good, but it's not even close to good enough. Eating bullets just isn't where it's at now, the name of the game in SR4 is dodging. Case in point:

Every 3 dice amounts to an average 1 hit, so against a weapon with AP 0 you're looking at 8 hits. That's certainly enough to absorb all but the best shots from small arms, but in the case of a full narrow burst from an ExEx Ares Alpha, you're looking at 17 DV with -3 AP. You are likely to take 10 DV from that, not exactly sitting pretty. Your opponent doesn't even need to be a great shot to geek you with a full narrow burst, the only difference between a normal person and a tank is that the tank might survive and be able to limp away.

Now, a cybered adept with a little more brains can have reaction 8 utilizing boosted level 2, combat sense 3, improved dodge 3, and dodge at 6 for 22 dodge dice. You could push it even higher than that, but I'm just taking these numbers from a very well rounded and dangerous build I made. Regardless, 22 dodge dice gets you about 7 hits on average, which is actually less than the tank gets from his damage resistance right? Nope. The best (and I mean very best) attack pool you can get is 10 agility (elf modified maximum) and 12 in your skill of choice (6 skill + 3 improved ability + 1 reaction enhancer + 2 specialization), or 22. You are stasitically likely to dodge a shot from the best marksman who has or ever will live, and you haven't even maxed out your combat sense. Anything that comes your way has a very small chance of hitting you, as long as you're not surprised. The point is that no attack gets more than 22 dice (aside from situational mods) and thus no more than 7 average net hits, while a weapon's DV can be pumped to 17 with a free action by just switching the gun to full auto mode. You can twink out to where you can be assured of 7 hits every time, but not 17. Tanking is the loser's path, plain and simple.

PS If you were going to suggest that my dice pools are smaller than they could be, note that you can't actually take 6 improved ability on anything, check the errata.

[DrowVampyre]

Actually, one of your pools is smaller - the elf modified max for Agility is 10...but if you get Exceptional Attribute (Agility), it becomes 12. And you could have Aptitude (Firearms skill of your choice) to grab another in skill. Plus, of course, smartlinks, tracers, and firing wide bursts to drop up to 9 dice off the dodger's pool, but we'll call those situational.

[UndeadPoet]

[Kremlin KOA]

not with that kind of success rate
you miay be able to full dodge until tey run out of ammo
o better yet if ya gort more init passes full dodge until they run out of passes then kill them

[Crusher Bob]

Of course, dodging doe not protect you from area of effect attacks or spells.

[Kremlin KOA]

Dodging DOES protect from grenades and similar area of effect attacks

[mfb]

actually, i think it does, at least for grenades and elemental manips (or whatever they're called in SR4). as i recall, you get something like a -3 dice pool modifier.

[DrowVampyre]

Lessee...if you assume a maxed Reaction character (10, with Exceptional Attribute: Reaction), with Combat Sense 10, utilizing maxed Full Dodge with a specialization against Ranged (12, with Aptitude: Dodge), you get 32 dice to dodge.

Now, say you're being shot at by a maxed Agility (12, using an elf with Exceptional Attribute: Agility), with maxed out Automatics with a specialization in Assault Rifles (9, with Aptitude: Automatics), with a smartlink (additional 2) and reflex recorder (1 more), firing tracer EX-Ex on full auto (another 3) with the wide burst option (-9 dice to your pool) from an Ares Alpha with gas vent 3 and shock pad (-3 to his pool for recoil), you end up with a pool of 23 while he's got a pool of 24.

You could, of course, both use Edge, but he'll end up slightly on the better end of that one, what with having a higher pool to begin with. Note that this isn't an adept shooting at you - he could cram in another 2 dice if he were. Now, while you're both going to be almost equal, he's still got a very slight advantage on you, and if he hits, you're taking 8P with a -3 AP modifier.

The good news is, you'll survive that. The bad news is, now he sees just how Neo-like you are, and fires the grenade launcher. The worse news is, now his buddy with the gyro-stabilized Ultimax HMG-2 is gonna open up on you too. ;)

[mdynna]

Wide bursts are the wonderful mechanic that was added to balance out Neo-like bullet dodgers.