 Mystic Spirit Teleportation |
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 May 12 2006, 12:20 AM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 26-April 06 Member No.: 8,500  |
What is a good countermeasure for keeping a spirit from just 'appearing' (IE manifesting out of the astral plane) in a rather inconvienient spot (like infront of your face while you are driving) without having to resort to magic? Or is the only way to errect an astral barrier/cover the place with living vines and have a mage with you?
Also, is there any way to evade an astral persure without a mage friend, or are you just SOL if one picks up on you? (I guess you could give them the run around for Magic hours, but how do you know when they give up? What if they have a buddy they can lead to you to pick up your trail when they get 'tired?') If you are in a dark allyway and a force 5 spirit appears infront of you and you left your assault cannon at home, how do you defeat it? (without a mage holding your hand again). |
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May 12 2006, 01:58 AM
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#2
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Well, the manifested form is "ghostly", so one should be able to see through them enough to drive (distracted penalty, perhaps). Only mana warps (such as space) will really prevent the presence of spirits.
Well, you could invest in a spirit bodyguard (ie, pay a conjurer to summon and bind a defender), pay for a ward or a quickened mana barrier spell, or you could train/hire a dual-natured pet/ghoul.
Well, you have a little bit of time from the time it begins to Materialize to the completion, so, running very quickly is always an option. However, IIRC elemental damage still bypasses Immunity to Normal Weapons, so start blasting the thing with Stick 'N Shock or such. |
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May 12 2006, 02:08 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 314 Joined: 25-February 06 Member No.: 8,307 |
Umm.. I would opt for being a physad, specializing in melee combat, with orichalcum snapblades (for flavor) Other than that, running sounds good. |
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May 12 2006, 02:13 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 06 From: San Francisco Member No.: 8,275 |
What the frag is a physad? |
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May 12 2006, 02:25 AM
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#5
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 26-April 06 Member No.: 8,500 |
Unless you have flare compensators, I would think a fire spirit would blind you (on top of setting your car on fire)
I had thought about that being a pretty good idea just after I posted this, though I couldn't really think of an appropriate price. My gut feeling would be 1k per force rating (2x the cost to bind it), plus some amount per service owed (IE times it would defend you). Possibly this would be split up among the services, IE if it owes 3 services it would cost 1k per force/3 per service owed.
Immunity to normal weapons states specifically the kind of things that bypass it (basically anything that isn't magic or its weakness counts as 'normal.') It takes a complex action to materialize, and it has two initiative passes (since it loses the third when it becomes material), so you wouldn't have any time to react unless you beat it in its suprise check (+6 considering how it was waiting for you). As for running, it can outrun you - and if you somehow can run faster than it, it can always go astral as a complex action, follow you until you get tired, and then re-appear - though this may take extra services, but I don't think making it materialize counts as an action any more than making it go active/inactive does. Try not to think about this from a "how do you build a character that beats it" standpoint, more for characters that are paranoid and want to feel at least somewhat safe from it. Obviously everyone can't afford the services of a full-blown mage to cover their back, but there must be some sort of alternative (like the astral bodyguard which I'm liking more and more). Referring back to myself:
How about if a mage orders his spirit to go appear inside the cockpit of a random military aircraft that just flew ahead. Oops, le crash. Mage: "Now do it again..." |
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May 12 2006, 02:53 AM
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#6
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
I guess you meant Materialize there, instead of Manifest... As to that, think about the speed difference. While in astral space, it has no momentum, meaning durning the complex action it takes to Materialize the bike has sped on. The spirit must have enough physical space to Materialize into, IMO, so no becoming physical in front of a car driver inside the car.
Right, it takes a complex action to Materialize, meaning that you see it appearing in front of you. That's like saying a character can surprise you by climbing out of a sewer. I don't buy that, personally. If it's waiting for you, then it should have Materialized behind a dumpster and then sprung out to surprise you.
Now you're inventing a whole scenario, but you shouldn't have to run far. Run into a nearby business, or residence. If it's a fire spirit and it follows you, break open the fire hose and go to town. Break through windows, change levels, leap off buildings into garbage trucks. It still has to see you to follow you. If you're a hacker there's all sorts of doorway advantages you have. Use your knowledge of how buildings are laid out over the spirits unfamiliarity with them. Now, is the spirit on a remote service to kill you? Or is it limited to the spirit-summoner range? Sure it can go astral to pursue you and pop up whenever you run down, but make sure that you run into a talismonger shop or get a secforce involved. Out think it. [e] I have pretty much every active military vehicle protected by a ward or mana barrier, spending far less than 10% the cost of the pilot + vehicle to defend them. |
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May 12 2006, 03:01 AM
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#7
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 26-April 06 Member No.: 8,500 |
Ah HA! Great point, thanks for pointing that out. (Now I feel silly for bringing it up :grinbig: ), though because its form is amorphous, space really isn't much of an issue with that, but the momentum point is. Then again... you can still move while performing a complex action, so why couldn't you continue traveling in astral space while manifesting (then splattering yourself all over the driver during the impact because as you mentioned it has no momentum). Hmm, on the other side, it must have some momentum, otherwise it would fly off the planet as soon as it formed as it would be in a "newtonian standpoint" (I think that is the term for it, though its been a while) so it would be still relative to the entire universe. If it is still relative to the earth, then it would splatter the driver when it finished manifesting, unless it becomes somewhat corporial the moment it begins, which in that case it would be hit before it was finished materializing. That is another good point about outthinking it. A character who can hide would be able to thwart even a relativly powerful spirit who is sent after them. Edit: An interesting note, I did some calculations and the speed of astral form would be about 660 km/hour [Theoretical time for light to circle the globe (excluding interferance from transmission - like having to be routed through multiple nodes) is about 0.133676 seconds, so I derived the speed of 'thought' based off of this :P Edit 2:
The best spirit to use to attack someone and track them down would be an air spirit, which can travel at aproximatly 55 miles/hour when running (which is also its fly speed). It would be impossible to lose it when it can litterally stick to you the entire time because it's so fast (on top of gratuitous use of 'accident' to mess you up). |
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May 12 2006, 03:21 AM
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#8
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
So which speed rating does the spirit get while Materializing? Its astral movement, or its physical - or some decelerating combination of the two? Newtonian physics doesn't really apply to the astral form. For all we know, Earth isn't rotating in astral space... So when it comes into the physical all the laws begin to affect it - but does a spirit have mass? I guess, it's speed maybe relative to location it is Materializing into, provided it can move astrally at a similar rate... I would guess the driver would see the spirit appearing before him and slam on the breaks or turn swifty - "Roll down your window and let me toss this Water spirit out" *screech* (regular driving is /like/ having a delayed action in many ways, IMO, just like how you can suddenly make a driving test to avoid little old ladies). I'm not really sure about the "amorphous form" though, seems abusive. |
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May 12 2006, 03:27 AM
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#9
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
Also, it could Movement itself and catch pretty much anything.
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May 12 2006, 03:28 AM
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#10
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
That's a use of a power, which is a service, and it would almost assuredly have to be order to do so. |
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May 12 2006, 03:35 AM
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#11
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 26-April 06 Member No.: 8,500 |
Unfortunatly when it materializes, it starts to obey the laws of physics. It must have mass in order to interact with mass on the level that it does. It doesn't matter if it is made up of little pink bunny rabbits, those little pink bunny rabbits have mass of some kind (though apparently gravity has no effect on that mass, regardless it still must be able to interact with matter though some method of phsyics and in order to affect something it must have some sort of mass unless it is just an embodyment of electromagnetic fields). Perhaps the spirit is a waveform that appears differently from conventional matter, but wait, it's magic so therefor it can't obey any laws of physics of any kind. Its kinda dissapointing because quantum mechanics could be used to technoblabble how spirits exist, but then, you would be able to detect magic with technology and that is apparently a no-no. Its kinda like having your cake (being able to interact with the world) and eat it to (be unnaffected by the world in turn - like gravity having no effect upon you and anything that isn't magic you are highly resistant to). I guess it's hard to compete with something that cheats :P
So wait, your telling me that when you order your spirit to attack someone after summoning it, it takes two services? One to bring it out of astral space and the other to attack? How about putting it into standy? While it takes no action to put it in standby, it does take an action to put it into a state where it can standby. Seems like a cop-out to me. Spirits arn't retarded (especially if they are powerful ones), and as long as it has no reason to hate you then I fail to see why it wouldn't use everything it could do to carry out the orders you instruct it to do in order to get it over with quickly so it can be let go. Ah ha: Page 178:
Also note that the phsyical form is defigned as the materialized form on page 176. |
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May 12 2006, 03:45 AM
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#12
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
I don't think so, but I thought that was because those powers were specifically excluded. However, it could be argued that it takes two services to order it to Materialize (use of a power = service) and then Attack (listed as a service).
I'm not following. What /Power/ does the spirit have to use in order to go on stand-by?
Er, why wouldn't it want you to use as many services as possible to do that? If you bound the spirit, then it already doesn't like you, if it's on a remote service then it might or not, and if it's just summoned then it's hoping you'll use as many services as possible to depart before you get around to binding it... This post has been edited by Kanada Ten: May 12 2006, 03:50 AM |
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May 12 2006, 03:46 AM
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#13
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 26-April 06 Member No.: 8,500 |
See above Kanada. That strongly suggest that the use of materialization is considered 'free' when it is a required part of the action. 'Required' is variable, there is no reason why it wouldn't use this when it could.
I would also like to point out that spirits will singlemindedly persue any orders issued to it, otherwise they would be worthless when their version of 'attacking' is to just sit there and miss intentially until the enemy spellcaster disrupts it. Also note that you don't always need to bind a spirit, hence the use of the example of a remote service. It certainly shouldn't crawl to the target location at 1 meter per combat round because you didn't tell it to go at x velocity in y form and execute tactic z, though if you should there is nothing inhibiting you from ordering it to go to the target as fast as possible, engage it and switch between astral form and physical form as needed in order to persue them. You are saying that the only thing stopping this from happening is if the mage gives the wrong orders... I don't consider incompetency as being a good argument here. The quote specifically says that it can do it, and the need for it can be defigned by the mage (as an alternative example "If there is a mage, engage him in astral combat before attacking the other members; there is no reason to pointlessly endager yourself from more threats than you have to face.") |
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May 12 2006, 03:49 AM
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#14
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Like I said, specifically excluded.
So what you're saying is that the spirit should use all of the powers at its disposal at all times to accomplish the given goal? On a remote service, I might agree. On any other service? No way. That would lead to massive abuses of spirit powers. [e] Even adding people to attack or defend costs another service, the spirit isn't suddenly going to attack a new mage on the scene unless ordered to. This post has been edited by Kanada Ten: May 12 2006, 04:04 AM |
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May 12 2006, 03:56 AM
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#15
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 26-April 06 Member No.: 8,500 |
Specifically exculded from what?
To clarify, because the orders are trasmitted by a telepathic link - the continuous action is attacking, everything in between I don't see why the mage wouldn't have any control over. If he wanted it to switch targets that would be something else, but switching forms seems akin to being part of how it moves. |
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May 12 2006, 04:01 AM
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#16
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Materialization was specifically excluded from costing a service when used to fulfil another service. Lots of over editing going on here. |
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May 12 2006, 04:07 AM
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#17
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 26-April 06 Member No.: 8,500 |
Bwahahaha, agreed. I think we both have the mind that we don't want to clutter up the boards. Hm, interesting take on it, it makes much more since that it would use more than what it normally would on a remote service. Definatly agree that it would be rediculous if it went all out on every order.
But the question is, does that mean you send it on a 'remote service' if you want it to do more than normal? I don't think it would use its other powers than the one it mentioned (materialization and astral form) unless it was specifically instructed to attack with that particular attack. I'm persuing this from a devil's advocate standpoint because I want to iron out every possible argument that may come up in game. I feel that spirits should be used based off of intuition (like, 'dude, don't be lame and make a fire spirit appear infront of the driver to make him crash.'), but my players (well, player... then again I am probably going to kick him out of the group) prefer to take things as litterally as possible to get away with as much as possible. Don't mean to be generating any hard feelings for debating this so intensly, like I said, I just want to make sure I don't miss anything. I think I was comming off rude with my past arguments, I think it's a side effect of me playing devil's advocate from the standpoint of a munchkin :P , so again sorry about that. Edit: Already several very good counterpoints have been brought up, like the momentum point, which would even go so far as to suggest that if it did appear it wouldn't hurt the car or driver if it was hit, as while it has force (haha, no pun intended), it doesn't have real mass and as such would have no real physical effect on the world. Seems this could be taken two ways: the world disrupts it (in that it can't pass through walls for example, and it is struck it has no effect on the striker but it does effect the spirit), however it can put force upon the world (in the form of transfering energy from it to the target when it choses). In this regard I consider the car thing debunked, as the spirit would likely be nearly killed when it materialized and was struck by the car, though of course if it was sufficiently powerful enough the strike may not even hurt it at all if it doesn't overcome its force armor. I'm still up in the air about the astral movement thing, but the logical way of explaining this is that it only uses astral movement to A) Get to the target, and B) to pursue the target if and only if the target goes astral during that time and somehow loses its body. I could say that this is simply how services work, and that to demand that it use it repeatedly cost a service each time it is called back to material form. Edit 2: Bah, I totally missed this. The spirit is stationary when it materializes relative to the astral plane. *smacks head*. That would make since as it would appear without its momentum relative to the rest of the world. |
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May 12 2006, 04:20 AM
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#18
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Remote service spirits are more free than the others, in many ways. The spirit likely wants to complete the task as quickly as possible, using powers as it sees fit. But the summoner doesn't get much say in how that happens once the task has been given. Once it's on the remote service, I think the telepathic link between them is severed, neh? The spirit behaves in a way that completes the service using its understanding of the world (as you say, attacking astral threats before engaging the physical target). [e]
Yeah, it's an interesting question. Say, for example, the summoner says, "Chase them down and kill them." Is that one or two services? If you make it two, then I'd allow the spirit to change forms as needed or use the Movement instead if the spirit felt it could complete the goal better with that. If you made it one service, then the spirit would start "zooming" after them. This post has been edited by Kanada Ten: May 12 2006, 04:27 AM |
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May 12 2006, 04:27 AM
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#19
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 26-April 06 Member No.: 8,500 |
Wholeheartedly agree with what you just said. Makes perfect sense now, thanks. It would be logical to assume that the telepathic link is broken once it begins its remote service since recieving the order is the last thing it owes you (carrying it out afterwords is part of the contract), so it would want to break the telepathic link as soon as possible since it doesn't owe you anything else.
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May 12 2006, 04:29 AM
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#20
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
And [remote spirits] don't count against your limits anymore, either, which is nasty overpowered in the hands of a munchkin conjurer.
[e] Man, I even checked before I posted that last edit, but you squeezed in there... |
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May 12 2006, 04:40 AM
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#21
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 26-April 06 Member No.: 8,500 |
Wow, that's scary. Thanks for giving me a heads up. I could agree with the use of two services in order for them to use Materialization/Astral form to chase them, considering the magnitude of a service. Another potential counter is that you would have a few seconds too attempt to hide from the spirit, since while it is de-materializing/re-materializing I imagine it wouldn't be to well aware of exactly what is going on around it. Incase you can't tell, I <3 edit :love: One last thing, when you are astral, does the range that a spirit can travel from you move with you? It doesn't specifically say. I would think that it does, since the essense that the spirit would be tied to would be the astral form, however your physical body has essense of its own which it may also be tied to. |
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May 12 2006, 04:56 AM
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#22
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
I would agree that [the spirit range] moves with the astral form of the summoner, and I'd use the telepathic link tied to the summoner's consciousness as the reasoning (since Essence is tricky here). [e] That means telling a spirit to defend your body while you go for a jaunt is a Remote Service. Hey, watchers do have a purpose!
This post has been edited by Kanada Ten: May 12 2006, 04:58 AM |
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May 12 2006, 04:01 PM
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#23
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
An archaic term for an Adept. See, in SR2 they were called 'Physical Adepts', because they didn't have any funky social or technical ability boosters. It was just all ass-kicking and athletics. So 'Physical Adept' was often shortened to 'Physad' most of the time. While it is no longer the politically correct term for an Adept, you'll still see it used to describe an Adept who focuses on combat or athletics. |
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May 12 2006, 07:06 PM
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#24
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
One of the problems I'm encountering is my group's conjurer using spirits to essentially cast from the astral. If he's on the astral and needs to cast a spell that affects something on the physical, he either whips up a spirit on the spot with the spell or uses one of his bound spirits, and has them Materialize and do it for him.
Does anyone have any suggestions for how I can manage this? Astral strafing runs were something I had hoped were dead this time around... and now I'm finding they just require the strafer to use Conjuring instead of Sorcery. |
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May 12 2006, 07:24 PM
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#25
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Any gun fired with skill can hurt a force 5 elemental. All you need is to get the base DV + penetration + net hits up to 10 (or is it 11?). EX EX or APDS means you only need one net hit with a base DV 5 weapon to bypass the immunity. I'd be more concerned about a street gang in the alley then a spirit. Street gangs will get a lot more shots at you then the spirit would, and can't be killed with a single shot.
Astral strafing runs can be stopped just by having a magical presence there. A mage is best, but a decent force spirit could also work to keep the astral mage busy. Also, don't allow the summoner to set the force for the spirit's spellcasting. The spirit should cast at a force equal to or less than his own force most of the time. |
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