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Nodes and Analyze

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Shrike30

May 16 2006, 11:48 PM

Post #26

Runner

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QUOTE (mdynna)

Here's something interest I just thought of: what about when if you set that Agent to run independantly? Would it need to validate its own account on the target system, or would it continue to use the one your Persona hacked in with?

I've been having the Agent use the same login it's owned used... there's nothing inherently wrong with using an Agent (there's plenty of legit uses for them, like running a Data Search elsewhere while you surf the Urban Brawl League node), so the fact that someone's login has an agent executing commands for them shouldn't really raise any hackles unless security on the server is phenomenally tight (basically, the GM says they're so paranoid they don't allow Agents). If that were the case, or if you wanted the Agent to drop in as another user, you'd have to dig up another login.

Also, if the server were to block out the access privledges of that account for whatever reason, your Agent would be just as SOL as you are.

Serbitar

May 17 2006, 10:30 AM

Post #27

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QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)

QUOTE (Serbitar @ May 16 2006, 01:18 AM)

As given in my example here I allow a scan for every illegitimate action, b y IC only. The node resists hacking attempts with firewall+system when the hacking skill is used for an illegitimate action.

So if you've hacked yourself in (Hacking) as a Legit user, wouldn't you start using your Computer Skill to manipulate files your Account has access to? I mean, you could still use Hacking instead, but I'm still lost on how a Node knows your not legit when you are doing legit things with a Hacked account.

Yes you would. For actiions, that are legit for your hacked account, you use computer+skill (if at all) and the system does not roll against you. At least in my world . . .

Serbitar

May 17 2006, 10:33 AM

Post #28

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QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll @ May 16 2006, 04:51 PM)

There are few great examples here that touch on what I am mentioning.

Once inside (hacked or otherwise) if a Node scans your every move you'd be fine as long as you are continuing to use you Computer skill or preform legit actions appropriate to the account you've hacked. Once you starting using your Hacking skill, I can see where the Node Analyze would become a problem.

Maybe it's not stated in SR4 in those exact terms, but it took me a while to dig it out for myself.

Thats exactly my opinion and what I use in my thread.

Edward

May 17 2006, 11:04 AM

Post #29

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QUOTE (Shrike30)

It's worth noting that when a "node" isn't something like a drone or commlink (that is, when you're screwing around in a corporate mainframe or whatever) I don't apply the decreasing Response rule to the system you're on. If you can fit a rating 6 commlink, including all of it's memory and chips, into something the size of an iPod, then you can damn sure get enough parallel processors into something the size of a server rack slot that you can run a few programs without slowing down.

I'd probably apply this to characters, too... if they want to drag something that size into a run location, they can have as many programs going as they want. Think about it... if you could smuggle your hardware into their server room, you could have a real party in their node.

I like this for logic but not for balance. If I owned one of those nodes I could have unlimited agents with me while the host is sitting in a car near buy, the agents will come over the wireless matrix (threw a trail of breadcrumbs if need be)

Even if I don’t have one of my own (there expensive) I could hack a corporate host and steal from them. You could do this in SR3 as well of cause

Admin users cant change logs today, only delete them. At best if admin could edit the log emediatly after another line would be added,

Dd/mm/yyyy, log edited, admin account XXXXXXXX

So they know somebody edited the log, if you don’t want that you have to hack it.

Edward

Shrike30

May 17 2006, 07:42 PM

Post #30

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QUOTE (Edward)

I like this for logic but not for balance. If I owned one of those nodes I could have unlimited agents with me while the host is sitting in a car near buy, the agents will come over the wireless matrix (threw a trail of breadcrumbs if need be).

If one of my players wants to put in the kind of time and effort that it'd take to put a mainframe together, then drag it around with him on runs, he's welcome to. Pretty basic security precautions (like having doors between areas that seal, that also block wireless transmissions) can make "breadcrumbing" your way into the area a bitch and a half.

You've also got to bring those Agents down your daisy chain one at a time, unless you want the commlinks you're using along the way to crash, or the rating of the Agent to be so lowered that it gets detected, and causes the system to go autistic.

The kind of hardware I'm talking about here is something you could fit in the back of a van, or a large trunk of a car, once you figured in power sources, air conditioning, and all the rest, and it's friggin' expensive. Any hacker who wants to drag around that much hardware is welcome to try it, but it'll eventually cause problems, having that many eggs in one h4xmobile.

GrinderTheTroll

May 17 2006, 08:33 PM

Post #31

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QUOTE (Shrike30)

QUOTE (Edward @ May 17 2006, 03:04 AM)

I like this for logic but not for balance. If I owned one of those nodes I could have unlimited agents with me while the host is sitting in a car near buy, the agents will come over the wireless matrix (threw a trail of breadcrumbs if need be).

If one of my players wants to put in the kind of time and effort that it'd take to put a mainframe together, then drag it around with him on runs, he's welcome to. Pretty basic security precautions (like having doors between areas that seal, that also block wireless transmissions) can make "breadcrumbing" your way into the area a bitch and a half.

You've also got to bring those Agents down your daisy chain one at a time, unless you want the commlinks you're using along the way to crash, or the rating of the Agent to be so lowered that it gets detected, and causes the system to go autistic.

The kind of hardware I'm talking about here is something you could fit in the back of a van, or a large trunk of a car, once you figured in power sources, air conditioning, and all the rest, and it's friggin' expensive. Any hacker who wants to drag around that much hardware is welcome to try it, but it'll eventually cause problems, having that many eggs in one h4xmobile.

I'm confused, what's the advantage doing this, given you're not using the Response/System limitation?

Shrike30 View Member Profile	May 17 2006, 09:02 PM Post #32
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98	The only cases in which I don't have massive numbers of running programs lower the Response of a node is when the node is representative of some massive piece of hardware, like a mainframe. Inside of your commlink, the rule still applies. This exception was put into place due to the fact that I have a really hard time imagining 7 users running Browse on a corporate mainframe causing a performance hit. Edward pointed out that this causes an issue if a player gets inventive, buys himself a mainframe of some sort, and uses it as a home base for his army of Agents (oh god, second Matrix movie flashbacks...). I replied, acnowledging that there were advantages to doing this, but pointed out a few disadvantages I could think of, saying that I felt it wouldn't cause a balance issue.

mdynna View Member Profile	May 17 2006, 09:11 PM Post #33
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 371 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Regina Member No.: 8,145	Shrike30 is saying (and I whole-heartedly agree) that there exist systems in the world that are big, powerful computers. These are the kind of computers that corporations put everything on. Although the "raw" processing power of these systems is limited (they have a System rating of <= 6, usually) they have enough parallel processing capability that they can run an unlimited number of programs/agents (and have an unlimited subscriber list?) without suffering system response. It seems Shrike30 sees the same problem that I do: The Renraku SCIRE Main Host should not be limited to running 6 programs simultaneously. These "mainframe" hosts should not be affected by the same rules as joe-nobody's Commlink. Think about it: does something like the IBM HQ Data Center run on your average $1,000 laptop? No way, they need tons more power than that. Those massively powerful computers they have are physically huge, need to be temperature controlled, and can run thousands of programs at once. In SR, does it make sense that the Renraku HQ Main Host have the same program limitations as a Y 2,000 Commlink? Absolutely not. If you still think they should, please lookup my rant (forget which thread) about the entire SR4 Matrix being run on modified Meta Link Commlinks.

GrinderTheTroll View Member Profile	May 17 2006, 09:27 PM Post #34
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465	Thanks for clarifying that. My question now is this: SR4 says IC counts against a nodes running total but does it explicitly mention Agents? I know IC and Agents are similar, but are they truely the same? Are Agents (much like Personas are to Nodes) a sub-set of IC? If so, then perhaps Agents do not count against a nodes Response but IC does? Ultimately, if Agents and IC are the same, why specify a difference unless different rules exist?

mdynna View Member Profile	May 17 2006, 09:37 PM Post #35
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 371 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Regina Member No.: 8,145	The two names are kind of a legacy thing. Way back, originally, Agents were not part of the "standard" rules, and IC were the only "autonimous" programs. In later books (in SR3 in was Matrix) they added rules for Frames and Agents that players could create. To answer you question directly: yes, an IC is a sub-set of an Agent. An IC is an Agent that is activated/runs for the specific purpose of find and dealing with electronic intruders. However, I don't think they should be treated with any different rules. I am past trying to resolve what is written in the book, I am on to making my own sensible Wireless World rules.

Aaron View Member Profile	May 17 2006, 09:39 PM Post #36
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314	Hm. Parallel processors might do the trick. A machine large enough to have several parallel processors, all with the same stats, could run at the stated Ratings, but bump the Response limitation up to the total of the processors. For example, a mainframe with System 3 running five processors in parallel would be at least the size of our modern towers, have a System Rating of 3, and not suffer a Response hit until it's running fifteen programs. The cost would have to be prohibitive, or at least inconvenient, just for the sake of balance and for keeping hackers from running around with backpacks full of commlink (maybe the power requirements would be too much for batteries?).

Shrike30 View Member Profile	May 17 2006, 09:42 PM Post #37
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98	That runner gets shot at from behind, and his whole rig goes to hell. The heat he's generating running that many commlinks makes him easier to see on thermal. Or you could just forbid parallel linking of commlinks, and say it's a server-rack only kinda deal. However you choose to balance it, what works for your game is the best solution.

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