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 May 17 2006, 07:46 AM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 341 Joined: 3-October 05 Member No.: 7,802  |
Unless they couldn't get to an office to get a sin.
Sinless with the skills to be runners become runners, similar sinless people who can't get the skills become gangers as far as I can see. Plus not all runners are willing to do wetwork (+1 notoriety for doing it). There's a big difference between burglary and assassination, with the former you only kill in self defence if it goes wrong. |
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May 17 2006, 08:55 AM
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#27
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,401 Joined: 23-February 04 From: Honolulu, HI Member No.: 6,099 |
I pretty much side with the camp that feels SRs are SRs cause they lack the skills/mindset to be anything other than SRs. Being in a non-SR position for some reason doesn't give you the psychological satisfaction that SR things do. You may be fully aware you've chosen a deadly, difficult path but for whatever reason, it works for you.
Many of the same 'reasons' to explain why there are criminals fit the why there are SRs question too. Environment. You had to take to a life of crime to survive, and you happened to have a knack at it, which allowed you to fall into SR type work. Kinda like Hatchetman's background, piddly ganger, ganger with some cyber, Yak 'runner', down the path to helping out a corp VP chick then that VP eventually pointing a corp Johnson at Hatchet which then got him more or less into the biz. (Paraphrased from that cybertech book where he gets turned into a cyberzombie). |
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May 17 2006, 09:29 AM
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#28
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Source? I mean, if that's true , wouldn't that basically invalidate that whole fiction section about all the people who's identities were erased during the crash, that the goverment refused to acknowledge? THey'd just be able to re-register. But instead, they basically pretended that they didn't exist. Did that change somwhere? |
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May 17 2006, 01:44 PM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 684 Joined: 8-April 06 From: My dorm room Member No.: 8,438 |
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May 17 2006, 05:29 PM
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#30
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
You can still get a job if you're SINless. Thousands of illegal mexican immigrants get jobs every day in Fort Worth TX alone. Some of those are long term under the table jobs while others are day labor.
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May 17 2006, 05:32 PM
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#31
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
True, but the pay is drek, if you get paid at all. There are many reports of employers who hire illegals and then turn them in at the end of the project, rather than pay them. Many such workers understand the risk of not getting paid for a day's work. In the 2070, it'd be even easier to turn them in. You could do it while you were talking to them. All in all, not a good alternative to shadowrunning if you've got the skills. |
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May 17 2006, 05:35 PM
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#32
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I didn't say they were great jobs. :) I just wanted to clarify that not al SINless have to become runners or gangers.
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May 17 2006, 05:37 PM
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#33
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
This is actually quite funny. If you apply and are denied, they slap you with a criminal SIN - which is worse than SINless in most cases. Or, worse, "We're sorry, but you don't meet our requirements. However, you have been accepted by Absurdastan and granted full citizenship. Please make your way down the hall to their embassy, where I understand a transport is waiting. Don't worry, they only require four years of military service, and I've heard the inflight training sim is really good." |
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May 17 2006, 05:41 PM
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#34
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
A criminal SIN isn't gauranteed. It's more likely that they'd deport you.
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May 17 2006, 05:43 PM
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#35
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Where? Every nation requires a SIN... Plus, deporting you means you were given illegal alien status, so where ever they do send you, you now have a criminal record with the UCAS (essentially a criminal SIN).
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May 17 2006, 05:53 PM
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#36
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Who cares where? You're no longer their problem. Illegal immigrants in America don't necessarily get a criminal record, why would UCAS differ?
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May 17 2006, 07:18 PM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 684 Joined: 8-April 06 From: My dorm room Member No.: 8,438 |
Yes, but they are not legally holding those jobs. They cannot expect the same rights and protections (such as a consistent salary paid at regular intervals, Social Security, etc.) that legal jobholders can, because their jobs are not protected by U.S. law. That difference is what makes a crappy illegal job much less desirable (from a worker's perspective) than a crappy legal job. |
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May 17 2006, 07:21 PM
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#38
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Actually they do. Deported illegal immigrants are processed and filed, photographed, and IIRC fingerprinted in the US. It does matter where you deport them to because the government is paying for the gas... You'd end up with the New York garbage barge situation until Asmando graciously agreed to accept them. |
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May 17 2006, 09:01 PM
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#39
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I stand corrected on the criminal record thing. I should have googled before I typed. :) So they dump them at the closest border. This isn't a people loving democracy any more (not like we've really got one of those now).
FanGirl: true, but that doesn't mean they have to become a ganger or runner. Tehre are other options, which is all I was trying to say. |
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May 18 2006, 01:01 AM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 106 Joined: 10-April 06 Member No.: 8,447 |
One motivation for sinners could be they lost their job doing something stupid but not illegal. For example pissing off their boss. They're still on record and thus still a sinner.
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May 18 2006, 01:13 AM
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#41
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
That doesn't make sense; none of the neighboring nations is likely to accept a truck of SINless anymore than the UCAS would. You're back to the barge scenario. Most likely, they give you a probationary citizen criminal SIN that has few rights, but allows them to collect taxes and track you. If Lone Star is the one issuing the criminal SIN (say they arrested a group of SINless protestors), then they scan for any crimes they can ring on you before dumping you back in the streets with a brand new RFID tag latched to your intestine. In both cases you're prohibited from entering secure areas. |
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May 18 2006, 01:17 AM
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#42
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
So dump them on a barge and toss them out to sea.
My view on illegal immigration is admittedly very harsh. I live in Texas where illegal immigrants eat up a comparatively large portion of jobs and health care tax dollars. Anything that keeps them out of my state is a good thing IMO. |
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May 18 2006, 01:23 AM
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#43
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
These aren't actual illegal aliens, you <insult>, they're disenfranchised people - they're given illegal status to play to people like you. Children born from families that can't afford health care and those ex-Americans expelled from the NAN who were never allowed to intergrade into a closed society.
If they were worth removing then the Barrens would be empty. This post has been edited by Kanada Ten: May 18 2006, 01:25 AM |
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May 18 2006, 01:56 AM
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#44
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
If they can prove they were citizens before the crash then great. If not, screw 'em. Did you used to work in weapons design at Ares? Bring in a couple of people who have already proven themselves to work there and have them vouch for you. It isn't foolproof, but if you make the penalty for falsifying the information harsh enough you'll dissuade casual frauds.
If you're a legal citizen, then a chain of data can be traced back to a job, a doctor that remembers you, or something. Just because your SIN got erased doesn't mean that everyone's memories are also gone, so you rely on eyewitness data. Set a number of SINned witnesses that have to sign for you and then make the penalties for fraudulently signing for someone be very harsh. Give a time limit as well. If you don't get your claim in within 6 months you're screwed unless you were somehow medically unable to get the claim in (probably because you were in a crash induced coma). |
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May 18 2006, 02:33 AM
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#45
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
But it is impossible to prove that you are who you say you are even if you have someone who can vouch for you. You could have killed a real SINer and had some plastic surgery. You could have paid these people. Witnesses mean nothing. Only records matter.
Besides, the point of the SIN was never to differientiate legals from illegals or to track people's movement. Those were just benefits. The original and true point of a SIN is to stratify society so that individuals will have a harder time seeing the government corruption around them. As for motives, consider that any runner who has become elite knows enough dirt about enough important entities that someone would certainly kill him if he came out of the cold. The best he would hope for is a realitvly safe job as someone's pet secret agent like the members of Assets Inc. |
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May 18 2006, 03:19 AM
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#46
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Yeah, because the people you hang out with and work with only know your face and voice. They don't have any shared memories you can be questioned about.
That's why I said make the penalties stiff. It won't get rid of all violations but wold make them a lot less common. And of course there's the magical and technological lie detectors that you have to fool.
Got a source for that? |
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May 18 2006, 03:37 AM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 684 Joined: 8-April 06 From: My dorm room Member No.: 8,438 |
Occam's Razor, my friend. If I claim to be, say, Jane Smith of Detroit, Michigan, and I can point to other respectable people who also claim that I am Jane Smith of Detroit, Michigan, and you don't have records of any women matching Jane Smith's description that were recently reported missing or found dead, what would lead you to assume that I killed Jane and stole her identity? If you're like most people, you'll simply accept that I am the person I claim to be and give me a SIN, instead of resorting to bizarre conspiracy theories. |
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May 18 2006, 04:20 AM
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#48
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Since when has the government been reasonable? Modern representative government is a twisted labyranth of bureaucracy designed by the paranoid with the assumption that everyone is corrupt and any tiny loophole, leeway, or discression will be fully and completely abused.
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May 18 2006, 04:34 AM
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#49
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
And yet we still allow eye witness testimony in courts of law, despite the chance that you've paid the people off.
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May 18 2006, 04:49 AM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 684 Joined: 8-April 06 From: My dorm room Member No.: 8,438 |
And you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that someone committed a crime before you can charge them with it!
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